Boiler leak issue driving me up the wall

[Cainan]

Ok working at a church, job was to change 32 thermostatic radiator valves.....easy
change a few taps ok.....easy
fix pressure drop on boiler.....not so easy

the boiler house is situated about 6 metres away from the church so the pipework goes under ground and then into the church.
pressure drop is pretty much top up to 1.5 in the morning by night it's sitting at zero.
Done the obvious things, checked pressure on expansion vessel which is all good
been under all the floor boards in the church all bone dry
checked prv over night with container under again that is fine
i then isolated the flow and return under the floor boards when it was entering the building so I was only testing from boiler to church under ground pipework and again pressure down at zero so I can pretty much rule the church out completely
not sure why I am writing this as I think I know what is required but just in case some one has any other suggestion thought I would come on here.
am I faced with the sad fact that we are ripping up the concrete base outside and digging to the pipes? No leak on boiler, no leak on prv, expansion vessel fine but there's a pretty major leak somewhere and that's the only place it can be......right?

 

[Howsie]

Right. <hands shovel & pic >

 

[Killy Bing]

Are the pipes in ducting?

 

[albatross]

You could try leak sealer.

 

[Cainan]

You could try leak sealer.

Killy Bing- no not pipe ducted at all of what I can see difficult to tell though if it is later on of course

Albatross I actually tried that, hope more than anything but knew it wouldn't seal it so that's not worked either

 

[IDCHAPPY]

You could try leak sealer.

Too big a leak for that I reckon. It's pishing out somewhere.

 

[Cainan]

Too big a leak for that I reckon. It's pishing out somewhere.

Yea I tried it, there was no chance was there just hope more than anything

 

[Ermintrude]

Get a cat and genny or even a oscilloscope and trace the leak with sound . Thermal camera will struggle with concrete in top.

I would mole it. You can mole / drill a hole faster than u can dig / backfill normally about same cost. Drill new holes and thread in a 225mm mdpe pipe, use this as a sleeve for the insulated pipes to pass through?

 

[albatross]

If its a straight run and large pipe you may be able to access each end and just push slightly smaller pipe down it and connect each end, no or minimal digging?

 

[armyash]

I'd be interested to read how this gets dealt with.

 

[Whyme]

is it a condencing boiler. cos if it is isolate the boiler itself and see if the pressure drops. possibly pin holed main hex going down condence line.

 

[IDCHAPPY]

If it's not in a duct and has just been buried in concrete then the pipework will be rotten.

 

[Whyme]

ive seen denso'd pipe 30 odd year old ripped out of concrete and been right as rain. good luck anyway sounds spicy.

 

[IDCHAPPY]

I agree about the denso part but I was meaning if it hadn't or there was a gap or something.
Interesting though

 

[Cainan]

Ok bit more news, went round again today to dismantle pipe boxing etc and found that the pipes are actually 2" steel ppies! They have linked onto them when boilers where replaced a few years ago. So they go through the wall in pipe ducting but about half a metre down shining down with a torch you can see concrete and god knows what happens after that. It then must go about 4 m then onto a bend where it then heads about another 4 m into the church. Now this is a nice grass area where talking it is solid concrete base and will be a nightmare to take up but I simply can't see any other explanation. I liked someone's idea on here of pushing pipe through original one but with the tight bend it just won't be possible, 15mm hep at an absolute push but that would mean inch at boiler to 15 then back to inch at the other end which isn't feasible. Someone suggested it could be the condensing pipe but it's not it's in a boiler house so can see pipework run down onto a bend then along the floor in a drain and floor is all bone dry.

As a one man band, I will do the work but think I'll take a lot longer than getting the big boys in!

nightmare

 

[Ermintrude]

Cap both ends of iron bump pipes up to. 5 bar ? Are there only two pipes running through or 4 ? I would cap iron and bump up to 5 bar . U might not get paid if you dig up pipes and still have a leak.

You can charge for all this investigation work


you may not get paid when you have replaced

 

[Cainan]

Cap both ends of iron bump pipes up to. 5 bar ? Are there only two pipes running through or 4 ? I would cap iron and bump up to 5 bar . U might not get paid if you dig up pipes and still have a leak.

You can charge for all this investigation work


you may not get paid when you have replaced

this is is true, as much as I get on with the,people I know what you mean and wouldn't want to risk it, I think it's a good idea to do this just to be on the safe side.

 

[REDSAW]

pressure lost through condense?

i would isolate and pressure test pipes before doing all that digging first!

otherwise your going to need a bigger spade clyde.lol

 

[Whyme]

Unfortunately sounds a lot bigger than a one man band unless you can price for the groundwork and get them to pay that separate if indeed its leaking under the grass. then the re piping price ( probably 54mm copper if 2 inch is already there or redo in steel because of the amount of rads ) wouldnt go the smaller pipe pushed through process because you may have probs in the future. that amount of rads require a given pipework size etc etc.

 

[E4gas]

is it a condencing boiler. cos if it is isolate the boiler itself and see if the pressure drops. possibly pin holed main hex going down condence line.

I heard gloworm boilers get a few call backs regarding that fault

 

[albatross]

So cap and test the pipes as ermintrude said, if they fail. Dig two holes like I said each and and a third at the bend and cut the elbows out with an angle grinder. Push new pipe through and join it. It's a church so get the grave digger to make the holes.

 

[Whyme]

I heard gloworm boilers get a few call backs regarding that fault

a lot do now. it used to be worc etc with alloy heat ex but the new drum style stainless ones are suffering ( probably because of thickness).

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Was it leaking before you start the job ???

 

[Reg Man]

If it takes all day to loose 1.5 bar pressure, it is only a very small leak. If it were a substantial leak, it would have an immediate pressure loss. TRV's changed so that should eliminate one end of radiators. Check glands on lockshield ends and air vents, then go into the bigger investigation.

 

[Cainan]

Reg man, I've isolated the rad completely with valves so testing boiler to where pipes enter church.
safegasinstall, no no it was description of job they have been topping it up for months.
whyme, I know they did have a small leak issue around that area before but I've had a look a couple times and everything was bone dry
albatross- looks like I'll need to do that however it's all concrete and looks quite deep down looking at where the ducting is in boiler house......fun fun

I will certainly keep you all posted on this

 

[CXR100]

empty the system of all the water............ the fill it all with roundup , if all the grass outisde dies then start digging!! haha only joking, how much leak sealer did you use? id imagine that a system that big would require a few literes!!

 

[galaxy_plumbing]

it would be cheaper to employ a Chinese man who would top up the pressure once a day.

 

[Cainan]

empty the system of all the water............ the fill it all with roundup , if all the grass outisde dies then start digging!! haha only joking, how much leak sealer did you use? id imagine that a system that big would require a few literes!!

i put in 2 bottles so 2 litres of sentinel. Leaks too big for it though, me saying it's once a day it needs topped up it's more like once every 5hrs they just need it on for that long so don't notice it's down until following day. I'm going on Monday night to blank off pipework under boiler then pressure test to 100% rule out the boiler, if pressures stays good it has to be under the concrete at which point we will need to get the diggers in

 

[SafeGasInstall]

it would be cheaper to employ a Chinese man who would top up the pressure once a day.

What's the problem with Chinese people !!! Don't forget they will rule the world soon

 

[acecharly]

can you not just run new pipework between boiler house and the church?

 

[IDCHAPPY]

can you not just run new pipework between boiler house and the church?

Churches are notoriously tight, even tighter than us Scots(supposedly )

 

[Corgiguy187]

is it a condencing boiler. cos if it is isolate the boiler itself and see if the pressure drops. possibly pin holed main hex going down condence line.

Had this 3 or 4 times and has caught me out with green star Worcesters. Cap flow/return see if pressure holds.

 

[Cainan]

Ok this was sometime ago but thought I would just give quick update as I was on here. I ended up after trying every single other bloody thing cutting the tar out and digging a track between the hall and the church. Found the old pipework, cut into it and fed new hep through and into church and boiler house, connected up, come back the next day and pressure was solid. Got company to re tar and the job was success, so somewhere under ground there was a leak. Thanks for all help at the time of this going on

 

[galaxy_plumbing]

nice to hear some feedback after this mad job

 

[kris]

Yeh well done give yourself a pat on the back. Its good to here actual fixed solutions to problems started on here.