Salamander Surrey flange or essex flange?

[Reltub]

As above, reason im asking is because ive never had to drill a cylinder and dont really want to! Any1 had any experience with the salamander flange? If so will it be as good as using an essex?


cheers

 

[Richie_77]

Essex flanges are easy if its an old cylinder you could possibly pin hole the top when you take out the old m/I.
As long as you've got a sharp hole saw its all good

 

[iiplumbing]

Hi reltub

Its salamander for me every time.

As long as the old top fitting comes of ok, then its a brainless task to fit the salamander.

Whereas cutting the hole (having first cut the insulation!) then pushing the fitting through the hole (hoping that you will not drop it inside) and then making sure it is sealed, its all a bit much for me

Give me easy peasy every time.

Russ

 

[Hirstgas]

It depends what your using it for. I once fit a shower pump and used the flange that connects to the top of the cylinder and it didn't work so had to swap it for the one you drill in the side. To this day I don't know why it wouldn't work I just thought the water all came from the same place no matter what flange was used.

 

[iiplumbing]

It depends what your using it for. I once fit a shower pump and used the flange that connects to the top of the cylinder and it didn't work so had to swap it for the one you drill in the side. To this day I don't know why it wouldn't work I just thought the water all came from the same place no matter what flange was used.

Maybe you connected the hot water draw off to the wrong connection on the salamander?

Its easy to do as I almost did it once!

Russ

 

[Hirstgas]

No tried it every way, I rung the pump manufacturer and they said it was because of the type of flange I'd used? God knows

 

[Irish]

It depends what your using it for. I once fit a shower pump and used the flange that connects to the top of the cylinder and it didn't work so had to swap it for the one you drill in the side. To this day I don't know why it wouldn't work I just thought the water all came from the same place no matter what flange was used.

Could have been a techflow pump has to be an Essex flange or warix flange, they say it can't be any other type

 

[Centralheatking]

I think your brave to post - but thats what (I think) we are to do CHK

As above, reason im asking is because ive never had to drill a cylinder and dont really want to! Any1 had any experience with the salamander flange? If so will it be as good as using an essex?


cheers

 

[cr0ft]

An essex flange does the best job out of all of them for minimising air being pulled through the pump. As air rises naturally in water, any flange fitted to the top of the cylinder is by definition going to be less effective than one fitted to the side.

 

[Ermintrude]

Think your always going to be a plumber first croft. Far too sensible !

 

[MK_Swans]

Essex for me for reasons aforementioned.

Also if there's no cylinder stat the water at the top of the cylinder could be too hot for the pumps flexis!

 

[Best]

Essex flanges are probably one of the worst fittings ever invented.
White rubber washers to seal them that can't take heat from the hot water without perishing - (my experience of them & also in their MIs). Also you have to drill too big a hole & then mark a circle to centre them. Bump into the pipework leaving a Essex flange of a few years & it leaks & won't stop!

I would prefer a new cylinder, with an extra tapping on side near top, or a Warix flange or Surrey flange. The Warix flange means a horizontal existing hot pipe will still fit unaltered. A cylinder could also be drilled at side for a 22mm brass tank fitting & a piece of wire threaded from the open immersion hole to the drilled hole & the tank fitting dropped through with decent seals used. Cheaper also.
Only cowboys or diyers fit Essex flanges!
I will now leave swiftly... :smile:

 

[iiplumbing]

An essex flange does the best job out of all of them for minimising air being pulled through the pump. As air rises naturally in water, any flange fitted to the top of the cylinder is by definition going to be less effective than one fitted to the side.

erm, sorry croft

whilst your observation of air rising is correct, and I'm not sure if I have remembered it correctly, but the connection that you take off for the feed to the shower pump on the salamander, is connected to a dip tube that is about 150-200mm long

thus avoiding drawing off water that has air in it

the air in the tank still has the ability to vent up the open vent

cavitation from a low pressure area caused by the pump drawing water from the bottom of the dip tube can still happen but it is much less likely as the cross sectional area at that point is comparatively large

unless I am mistaken!

russ

 

[cr0ft]

Essex flanges are probably one of the worst fittings ever invented.
White rubber washers to seal them that can't take heat from the hot water without perishing - (my experience of them & also in their MIs). Also you have to drill too big a hole & then mark a circle to centre them. Bump into the pipework leaving a Essex flange of a few years & it leaks & won't stop!

I would prefer a new cylinder, with an extra tapping on side near top, or a Warix flange or Surrey flange. The Warix flange means a horizontal existing hot pipe will still fit unaltered. A cylinder could also be drilled at side for a 22mm brass tank fitting & a piece of wire threaded from the open immersion hole to the drilled hole & the tank fitting dropped through with decent seals used. Cheaper also.
Only cowboys or diyers fit Essex flanges!
I will now leave swiftly... :smile:

Lol will ignore the last sentence. Never been called back to a leaking one yet and nor should we at the price of them. If worried then a bit of quality sealant like plumbers gold between the outer seal and the cylinder is a good idea.

cowboys take

 

[cr0ft]

erm, sorry croft

whilst your observation of air rising is correct, and I'm not sure if I have remembered it correctly, but the connection that you take off for the feed to the shower pump on the salamander, is connected to a dip tube that is about 150-200mm long

thus avoiding drawing off water that has air in it.

the air in the tank still has the ability to vent up the open vent

cavitation from a low pressure area caused by the pump drawing water from the bottom of the dip tube can still happen but it is much less likely as the cross sectional area at that point is comparatively large

unless I am mistaken!

russ

If salamander's pumpwise installation sheet recommends an essex flange over their own salamander flange as the preferred option then that is proof enough for me as to which is better.. You are right about the dip tube but the fact remains that as this is vertical and near the top of the cylinder it will always pull more air in than any side mounted flange.

 

[neily01]

A warix flange for me, a better configuration than the surrey and can be turned in any direction.

 

[kay-jay]

I rarely bother with a flange just tee downwards off the hw distribution from cyl. Mi's are all cobblers anyway. Pump mi's say has to be flange shower mi's state no flange as preferred

 

[Best]

QUOTE=cr0ft;619752]Lol will ignore the last sentence. Never been called back to a leaking one yet and nor should we at the price of them. If worried then a bit of quality sealant like plumbers gold between the outer seal and the cylinder is a good idea.

cowboys take[/QUOTE]

Seen a lot of Essex flanges leaking & often badly & cylinder corroded due to it not being noticed for a long time.
Over here Essex flanges were fitted on new cylinders (in the days that a 1/2" drain tapping wasn't already on the cylinder) & old cylinders for a connection near bottom for Willis external immersion heaters.
Even though they were near bottom of cylinder the washers turn like a biscuit after a few years.
Any fitted high on side got more heat & for longer obviously & perished quicker. Such as for shower pumps or some idiots even used 2 of 22mm essexs for primary connections.
Seen them lasting 20 years untouched & low on cylinder, but also a lot that didn't last much more than 5 - 10 years. Often required a new cylinder.

 

[erpkid]

If the cylinder looks borderline I always suggest replacement, if they don't want to then I T it with a downward pulled bend. If a good one I use the Salamander type. If new cylinder required I spec the RM stainless ones which have an extra 22mm draw off at the top.

 

[kay-jay]

If the cylinder looks borderline I always suggest replacement, if they don't want to then I T it with a downward pulled bend. If a good one I use the Salamander type. If new cylinder required I spec the RM stainless ones which have an extra 22mm draw off at the top.

As do the rm copper ones. Had one recently off ray.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

As do the rm copper ones. Had one recently off ray.

so did i, i thought it was a very good idea to already have a tapping

 

[Best]

And, if you don't need a cylinder immediately, with some you can often order a cylinder "special" with any extra tappings where you ask & for little cost.
(not sure about all manufacturers)
Essex flanges are so expensive anyhow & waste time fitting them.

 

[Irish]

I'm beginning to think you're not a fan of Essex flanges best?

 

[Best]

I'm beginning to think you're not a fan of Essex flanges best?

I quite like them as they are heavy for scrap brass though! :smile:
I do keep a couple of new horrible Essex flanges just incase I need to replace a leaking one someday. I hide them as embarrassed to be associated with them!

 

[lame plumber]

most people are embarrased to admit they have used an essex flange, be they brass or orange coloured in a pelmet

 

[stevetheplumber]

im sure salamnders recomend the essex flange with the tube to the center of the cylinder according to salamnders there is always air present around the side of a cylinder so you need the tube belive me salamanders will wriggle out of warannty claims for the smallest deviation from there instructions

 

[Ermintrude]

I had a curtain pole for ages made out of 28mm

 

[Irish]

I has issues with salamander once,their engineer came out said nothing was wrong with the installation swapped the pump for a new one, 3 months later new pump started leaking internally they came said 60degree water was too hot but gave me the benefit of the doubt swapped it again. 2 months later same thing but they wouldn't change the pump, said installation was incorrect even though it had a special tapping on the cylinder as I ordered a bespoke cylinder long story short I'll never fit one again

 

[Irish]

I had a curtain pole for ages made out of 28mm

I had it as a clothes rail with munsen rings to space away from top of wardrobe to get the hangers on

 

[Ermintrude]

Same but bay window

 

[WHPES]

I've started soldering flanged brass tank conenctors onto copper cylinders recently after I came across an old boy who always did that. The connection is extremely strong and efficient if correctly soldered and you get none of the problems associated with tightening up Essex flanges and washers perishing, however its quite a skill if you are unaccustomed to sheet metal work - you have to tin both surfaces first and use plenty of solder without overheating. If you are going to attempt it you need to practice a bit first on a scrap cylinder.

 

[tamz]

I've wiped many 2¼ flanges on years ago as they always moved and leaked when you screwed the immersion in.
After a flew leaks using the washers you learned to bin them and get the grade D out :smile:

 

[Best]

I've started soldering flanged brass tank conenctors onto copper cylinders recently after I came across an old boy who always did that. The connection is extremely strong and efficient if correctly soldered and you get none of the problems associated with tightening up Essex flanges and washers perishing, however its quite a skill if you are unaccustomed to sheet metal work - you have to tin both surfaces first and use plenty of solder without overheating. If you are going to attempt it you need to practice a bit first on a scrap cylinder.

Flat fibre washers would also do (cylinder coils are often done with them anyhow) but frankly loads ptfe tape wrapped around the flange of the brass tank connector into a washer will seal it & the tape won't perish ever.

 

[WHPES]

It's difficult to get it tightened up enough. If you are going down that route then hemp and paste is the best thing to use as you can really tighten up an Essex flange with it and it sets hard.

 

[Best]

It's difficult to get it tightened up enough. If you are going down that route then hemp and paste is the best thing to use as you can really tighten up an Essex flange with it and it sets hard.

Used to do it with flax & paste but not fond of it tbh.
Not fond of fibre washers also, as they probably perish a little in time.
You can tighten a tank fitting very tight, metal to metal almost, when it has ptfe tape as a washer.