Pro's & Con's

[helpsy]

Just wondered peoples thoughts on tougher regulation of the plumbing industry in the U.K, like countries such as U.S, Canada, Australia and New Zealand have to name a few.

 

[kay-jay]

pro's - none (just like all the existing bodies. actions would be few and far between. and the enforcers of such a scheme would be all bark and no bite.

cons - another costly membership scheme that forces up the prices of the professional and makes it more attractive for a custard to employ a unqualified unregistered turd.

 

[oz-plumber]

From what i cam gather from information read on this site, you guys are in desperate need of some serious regulatory authority.

As for fees we pay @ $300.00 ( Australian Dollars ) for our licensing.
We have to pay insurance on top of that but that depends on turnover and type of work done.

The prices I have seen on this site for what you guys get paid, is lower than it costs to have an employee employed in Australia.

I don't want to sound nasty or arrogant, but, I personally feel that you guys are in a bind with your skills and what you can charge for your skills and experience - or have to charge for your skills and experience to remain competitive.

I have had these thoughts for a long time and have been begging for a thread like this to vent my frustrations for you guys.

 

[gasmanrob]

I'm for it so long as they actually had powers and actually enforced the regs.

Let the builders build, the chippy a chip, the sparks stand around all day and the plumbers plumb none of this multi trade jack of all master of none.

 

[Ray Stafford]

I wouldn't on both principle and practical grounds.

Principle

This is supposed to be a free country. We regulate the entry and practice of certain professions, like Law, Medicine, Gas work and HGV driving because there are overwhelming public safety reasons for doing so, and therefore the vast majority of the public support those regulations. Whilst there might be a valid argument for putting oil on the same level as gas, I certainly don't see that general plumbing falls into this category, and more importantly, neither does Joe Public.

Practice

I don't believe it would achieve what it sets out to achieve. If the public don't believe regs are necessary, they will simply ignore them, and pay their mate from down the pub. In the unlikely event that you could enforce it, we would then get every other trade, profession and pastime seeking regulatory protection for themselves. I would start a campaign to regulate merchants, to make sure that I didn't have to deal with any new competition.

So every extra £1 you earned because you were a licenced plumber, you would have to spend £2 because you were no longer allowed to do your own carpentry, plastering, tiling etc, or maintain your own vehicle, or even cut your kids hair. The only people who would make money from it would be the regulatory and training agencies.

By far the most valuable thing the government could do is get the HSE to properly prosecute all instances of unsafe and unregistered gas work. If we can't properly enforce our existing regulations, we have no business introducing new ones.

 

[SimonG]

Course we need it. Cos gassafe works so well doesnt it. Not.

Sarcasm ends and practicality kicks in. It doesnt work end of. You will never stop un registered works. How do you think mr holmes on homes makes a living in canada?

 

[oz-plumber]

Sorry Guys,

I didn't get to finish what I wanted to say due to a force of nature.
Massive thunderstorm - power outage, screaming children and... my darling wife....????

 

[SimonG]

Sorry Guys,

I didn't get to finish what I wanted to say due to a force of nature.
Massive thunderstorm - power outage, screaming children and... my darling wife....????

What part of Australia? Wifes sister and husband live near Hervey Bay, one niece lives in Brisbane and the other on the Gold Coast.

 

[oz-plumber]

What part of Australia? Wifes sister and husband live near Hervey Bay, one niece lives in Brisbane and the other on the Gold Coast.

Melbourne.. the sporting capital of the world.

 

[oz-plumber]

Ray,

In response to you post...I would have to say that is the most derogatory post towards plumbers I have seen on this forum.

I honestly thought you had a higher opinion of Plumbers.

I also thought that promoting the qualifications and skills of plumbers might help you and the organisation you work for ( or own? ).

'Trade only' I can only gather from your post that means anyone walking through the door.

Would it not be beneficial to you and the company to promote and elevate the profile of Plumbers?

You mention 'Joe Public' and his thoughts.
Well 'Joe Public' can kiss me where the sun don't shine.
Joe Public can do what he wants, but over here he does plumbing work - in any form - and stuffs up, he will not have insurance cover and be prosecuted.

I hope I have interpreted you post wrong, because if I was one of you regulars, I would show you the same disregard as you have shown the Plumbing Industry.

I think your post is demeaning to the Trade and profession.

Oz Plumber

 

[SimonG]

Ray,

In response to you post...I would have to say that is the most derogatory post towards plumbers I have seen on this forum.

I honestly thought you had a higher opinion of Plumbers.

I also thought that promoting the qualifications and skills of plumbers might help you and the organisation you work for ( or own? ).

'Trade only' I can only gather from your post that means anyone walking through the door.

Would it not be beneficial to you and the company to promote and elevate the profile of Plumbers?

You mention 'Joe Public' and his thoughts.
Well 'Joe Public' can kiss me where the sun don't shine.
Joe Public can do what he wants, but over here he does plumbing work - in any form - and stuffs up, he will not have insurance cover and be prosecuted.

I hope I have interpreted you post wrong, because if I was one of you regulars, I would show you the same disregard as you have shown the Plumbing Industry.

I think your post is demeaning to the Trade and profession.

Oz Plumber

Funny but i didnt read Rays post like that.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Ray,

In response to you post...I would have to say that is the most derogatory post towards plumbers I have seen on this forum.

I honestly thought you had a higher opinion of Plumbers.

I also thought that promoting the qualifications and skills of plumbers might help you and the organisation you work for ( or own? ).

'Trade only' I can only gather from your post that means anyone walking through the door.

Would it not be beneficial to you and the company to promote and elevate the profile of Plumbers?

You mention 'Joe Public' and his thoughts.
Well 'Joe Public' can kiss me where the sun don't shine.
Joe Public can do what he wants, but over here he does plumbing work - in any form - and stuffs up, he will not have insurance cover and be prosecuted.

I hope I have interpreted you post wrong, because if I was one of you regulars, I would show you the same disregard as you have shown the Plumbing Industry.

I think your post is demeaning to the Trade and profession.

Oz Plumber

Hi Oz

I'm confused. What did I say that was derogatory?

I have spent almost my entire working life supplying materials to plumbers, and the one thing I can tell you for absolute certain is that there no such thing as an average "plumber". There are a full range of human beings, skilled and less skilled, polite and rude, reliable and haphazard, honest and dishonest, good looking and ugly, who happen to make their living working with pipes, valves, fluids and gases.

You will find me on this board and elsewhere regularly extolling the virtues of hiring a skilled professional.

But the fact that I believe that it is normally better to hire a professional skilled person is a very long way from believing that it should be against the law to make a different choice. Living in a free country is about making choices - including the right to make choices that you or I might disagree with.

Its appropriate for the state to intervene in those choices ONLY when the dangers are potentially catastrophic, which is why we regulate things like pharmaceuticals, firearms and explosives, and regulate trades and professions like medecine and gas fitting. But it is nonsense to compare the negative consequences of unlicenced plumbing with those of unlicenced medical practice.

Its not freedom if people are only free to do what you want.

And if you think that you ought to have the right to introduce regulations against the public will, and that the ordinary man in the street can kiss your bum, then I wish you well, but I prefer to live in a democracy where the laws have the support of the public.

And remember, in plumbing, we are the professionals, and everyone else is "joe public". But what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, so when every other trade and profession seeks to regulate and protect their industry, I presume you will be content to pucker up - because you are Joe Public to them.

 

[Ermintrude]

Be nice if the state did actually intervene? GS have no backbone. Unless your registered they ask you to join and that's it. HSE got no money for investigations or prescriptions so the just make leaflets and smile.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Be nice if the state did actually intervene? GS have no backbone. Unless your registered they ask you to join and that's it. HSE got no money for investigations or prescriptions so the just make leaflets and smile.

This is the part that gets me. There is a good case for intervening in enforcing gas safety, but having passed the law, we then dont enforce it. Pathetic.

 

[Millsy 82]

Be nice if the state did actually intervene? GS have no backbone. Unless your registered they ask you to join and that's it. HSE got no money for investigations or prescriptions so the just make leaflets and smile.

It's a shame they don't pay for the enforcement through the fines. Some of the fines handed out are stupid. I think I read somebody doing illegal gas work for at least 10 years £5000 it should be 10 times that anybody gas safe would probably pay more over that 10 years registering re-training etc. if it costs £1000 to investigate some one then add that to the fine then they could investigate some more! (Or is that how they do it now?)

 

[stevetheplumber]

what gas safe needs is some powers to investigate without being called in they could start with this beauty

 

[Ermintrude]

No it's capita so an investigation is going to cost 5 zillion dollars.?

 

[lame plumber]

easiest form of control is to prohibit sale of oil/gas items to unregistered persons, but that would upset big companies ie BnQ etc and they have a large voice in government, we don't despite what ciphe etc say

 

[Ermintrude]

People will just buy it from some one. , plus will make stuff more expensive as closed market

 

[Ray Stafford]

easiest form of control is to prohibit sale of oil/gas items to unregistered persons, but that would upset big companies ie BnQ etc and they have a large voice in government, we don't despite what ciphe etc say

I hear this a lot, but it isn't true. It would be very far from easy.

All gas appliances have been bought and sold at least once before an engineer gets his hands on it. In many cases they have been sold three times or more. So you have to register AND regulate every merchant, showroom, distributor etc. I estimate that there are, on average, probably 1.5 to 2 sales in the supply chain for every 1 sale of the sort that you think would be "easy" to regulate.

Secondly, its not B&Q that are selling gas appliances in volume to unregistered people. Truly retail sales of gas appliances are trivially small. Its plumb centre, grahams, and indeed us who are selling to unregistered purchasers. Millions of appliances are bought every year by perfectly legitimate buyers - hospitals, housing associations, councils, governement departments, schools, hotel chains, big builders etc, who wouldn't dream of fitting it illegally, but don't want to be forced to pay the installers mark up - and why should they? I can see why registered engineers would like to monopolise those sales, but it would just be rent-seeking of the worst possible kind.

Setting up a point-of-sale regulatory system would be neither cheap nor easy. And it wouldn't stop some registered but irresponsible fitter from selling them out of the back of his van for a tenner mark up.

By far the cheapest and easiest thing would be to properly prosecute the next 50 or so "hall of shame" cases, and dole out a bit of high-profile jail time

 

[Millsy 82]

what gas safe needs is some powers to investigate without being called inView attachment 18452they could start with this beauty
View attachment 18452

That's nothing but pure laziness. How long does it take to cut a flue pipe? 1 minute!

 

[Ermintrude]

It's done to protect hanging baskets

 

[oz-plumber]

QUOTE=Ray Stafford;650032]Hi Oz

I'm confused. What did I say that was derogatory?

I have spent almost my entire working life supplying materials to plumbers, and the one thing I can tell you for absolute certain is that there no such thing as an average "plumber". There are a full range of human beings, skilled and less skilled, polite and rude, reliable and haphazard, honest and dishonest, good looking and ugly, who happen to make their living working with pipes, valves, fluids and gases.

You will find me on this board and elsewhere regularly extolling the virtues of hiring a skilled professional.

But the fact that I believe that it is normally better to hire a professional skilled person is a very long way from believing that it should be against the law to make a different choice. Living in a free country is about making choices - including the right to make choices that you or I might disagree with.

Its appropriate for the state to intervene in those choices ONLY when the dangers are potentially catastrophic, which is why we regulate things like pharmaceuticals, firearms and explosives, and regulate trades and professions like medecine and gas fitting. But it is nonsense to compare the negative consequences of unlicenced plumbing with those of unlicenced medical practice.

Its not freedom if people are only free to do what you want.

And if you think that you ought to have the right to introduce regulations against the public will, and that the ordinary man in the street can kiss your bum, then I wish you well, but I prefer to live in a democracy where the laws have the support of the public.

And remember, in plumbing, we are the professionals, and everyone else is "joe public". But what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, so when every other trade and profession seeks to regulate and protect their industry, I presume you will be content to pucker up - because you are Joe Public to them.[/QUOTE]


Hi Ray,

Lets shake hand and agree to disagree.

I respect your views and opinions - not only on this thread but all threads.

We may have both misconstrued what each other was saying, but then we are on the same team playing at opposite ends of the field.

No hard feelings,

Oz Plumber

 

[lame plumber]

I hear this a lot, but it isn't true. It would be very far from easy.

All gas appliances have been bought and sold at least once before an engineer gets his hands on it. In many cases they have been sold three times or more. So you have to register AND regulate every merchant, showroom, distributor etc. I estimate that there are, on average, probably 1.5 to 2 sales in the supply chain for every 1 sale of the sort that you think would be "easy" to regulate.

Secondly, its not B&Q that are selling gas appliances in volume to unregistered people. Truly retail sales of gas appliances are trivially small. Its plumb centre, grahams, and indeed us who are selling to unregistered purchasers. Millions of appliances are bought every year by perfectly legitimate buyers - hospitals, housing associations, councils, governement departments, schools, hotel chains, big builders etc, who wouldn't dream of fitting it illegally, but don't want to be forced to pay the installers mark up - and why should they? I can see why registered engineers would like to monopolise those sales, but it would just be rent-seeking of the worst possible kind.

Setting up a point-of-sale regulatory system would be neither cheap nor easy. And it wouldn't stop some registered but irresponsible fitter from selling them out of the back of his van for a tenner mark up.

By far the cheapest and easiest thing would be to properly prosecute the next 50 or so "hall of shame" cases, and dole out a bit of high-profile jail time

its simple ray no card no sale, screwfix manage it ok, mark ups are negotiable like everything and thats no excuse in my simple mind.

 

[helpsy]

It would require a picture on it as you could hand yours to a mate to us otherwise

 

[Ermintrude]

It would require a picture on it as you could hand yours to a mate to us otherwise

Gas safe card does

 

[kirkgas]

Won't ever happen, it's flogging a dead horse to ask for restriction on sale of goods to trade only, if we get that for our trade we must then give it up for every other trade that involves any material that we could fit and injure someone, like electrics and car parts to name just two, and also there are a lot of fitters who stay under VAT threshold (and also greatly reduce their liability of getting stung out of £1000's) by getting customer to purchase the material, how would they trade? And as already said the companies selling have more power than us, and the government will look at how few deaths there are per year and say it isn't worth it, harsh but true, there aren't enough people dying from gas related work to make it a big hitter

 

[deandive]

cant see it working, and hope it doesnt happen, otherwise il have to stop doing water plumbing, I havent got the qualifications to buy a tap washer ;-)

 

[Ray Stafford]

its simple ray no card no sale, screwfix manage it ok, mark ups are negotiable like everything and thats no excuse in my simple mind.

So I couldn't buy a boiler then Jon? And for that matter, neither can screwfix! Neither of us are GSR, yet we buy many times more boilers than any of you GSR fellas.

What Screwfix do as a matter of company policy is very different to what you can have as a law.

 

[lame plumber]

wouldnt be hard to include merchants in a scheme as your not fitting just selling on, common sense often works better than restrictive laws, after all your trade only ray and that involves restrictive sales routines

 

[Mutha]

Over here Chadwicks and Heat Merchants both claim to only sell to RGI but how strict they are, I`ve no idea. Joe public can still go in and buy a boiler though from them.