Theft of gas

[CMairiD]

Had the good old BG inspector on the phone today re case of 'theft' of gas at one of our properties. I haven't seen the installation yet, so I'm only going on what's the inspector has said.

The inspector is of the opinion that the 'theft' began with our new boiler installation. It went from a BBU to a wall-mounted, close to where the external gas meter boxes are located. This is a block of flats with all the meters outside, but for this property (disabled tenant previously on pre-payment) where the meter is inside. He says the installers have teed off outside of the meter; therefore, when he turns off the inside ECV, the boiler still runs.

I've never dealt with theft of gas before, but it seems to me, if you are by-passing the meter, you are by-passing the governor. If you are by-passing the governor on a low pressure installation, you could be getting up to 75mbar hitting that boiler. Surely, that would cause some major flame lift and give poor FGA readings.

I guess my question is: can you by-pass the meter yet still have the governor regulate gas pressure? I'm not asking how to do it, just whether it can be done.

I've got three years worth of LGSRs on this WB 18Ri showing gas rates being done and excellent FGA readings. I don't understand how the flip our installers could have accidentally (according to the inspector) by-passed the meter yet the service guys are still able to perform a gas rate and get good combustion.

I've attached a drawing of the installation per the tenant. I would love to know your thoughts because something sounds fishy to me.

 

[Coulster]

It depends if the regulator is sited within the external meter box with say a bridging bar then the outlet from the box to the the inlet of the internally sited meter will still be governed by the regulator. You do not state where the regulator is sited as you said you haven't seen the installation.

If this is the case then the WP of the boiler for the last 3 years will be fine as it is on pipework after the regulator.

 

[kirkgas]

it is very easy to by-pass a meter while still utilising the govenor (allegedly) it will depend on the pipework/meter configuration, get us a couple of pics, you seem on the ball with the quality of the gas work you demand so i dont think the service guys will be making up the readings and not doing the work, will still be interesting how they deal with the unbilled gas, even if it proves to be safe, surely the tenant/supplier would have noticed no gas being charged, re the boiler running when the ECV is off, might be interesting to stand back and have a good look at the whole install to see what has actually been tested over the last 3 yrs, haha we await your report, def get pics

 

[CMairiD]

Thank you, Coulster & Kirk.

I have an appointment on Wednesday with the inspector and the original installer is coming along too. "No way I've by-passed that meter!" he says. I will defo have the camera with me. Might even take a trip out this afternoon to see if I can figure out what has happened.

With regards to gas charges, the installer told the tenant that going from a BBU to a condenser would be more efficient and cost less. The tenant never noticed as they pay a set £xx monthly for what they believe to be their usage and doesn't look at units used. Allegedly, only the cooker has been running through the meter. The tenant continued to pay this £xx monthly and BG kept refunding the difference.

I don't think the service guys are making up the gas rates either. We employ the dogs as quality control auditors and they do 10% overall audit of all LGSRs. The auditor himself is by the book and a former ACS accessor. I've done gas hours with him and I can tell you, not much gets past him. Those service guys never know which properties will be audited and of the gas rates taken, three different guys have filled out tickets (two in kW, one in m3).

 

[CMairiD]

Oh dear, doesn't look good. Assuming no one else has touched that pipework since the boiler install, that tee under meter box looks pretty damning.

Only good news is that the boiler is controlled by a governor in the outside meter box. Ran the boiler for 20 minutes today and the dial never moved.

What does concern me is that the LGSR docs for June 10 and Aug 09 show the meter as being a pre-payment. Now it's a credit meter.

Pics can be found at: [DLMURL="http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/110442394419598651739/Pipework?authkey=Gv1sRgCKftyvuR586p9wE#"]Picasa Web Albums - C MD - Pipework[/DLMURL]

Why would a supply be regulated by two governors, one internal, one external?

 

[Toddyplumb]

Why is the top flat meter not in the box ?
Definately bypassed going by your photo s , Good luck !!

 

[kirkgas]

Oh dear, doesn't look good. Assuming no one else has touched that pipework since the boiler install, that tee under meter box looks pretty damning.

Only good news is that the boiler is controlled by a governor in the outside meter box. Ran the boiler for 20 minutes today and the dial never moved.

What does concern me is that the LGSR docs for June 10 and Aug 09 show the meter as being a pre-payment. Now it's a credit meter.

Pics can be found at: [DLMURL="http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/110442394419598651739/Pipework?authkey=Gv1sRgCKftyvuR586p9wE#"]Picasa Web Albums - C MD - Pipework[/DLMURL]

Why would a supply be regulated by two governors, one internal, one external?

dont usually see them with 2 regulators, the external aarrangement is quitte common when an external meter is changed for a quantum that is being relocated inside for ease of access for the tenant, the pipework alteration in place of the meter is fine and allows the ECV, regulator and outlet pipework to be retained, the USUAL way to do this is to then locate the pipework inside and cut in the meter, using 2 meter tails on the meter, not a second regulator, this ensures all internal appliances are controlled by the meter and AECV, TBH looking at the pic i "think" the engineer who did the alteration has had a (too) quick think about how to connect in the new boiler and cut a tee in under the external meter box, as he can see ECV and regulator he knows its safe, and i think he has made an honest mistake, however it does result in the theft of gas, but under no circumstances unsafe due to the external regulator, now that we are surveying the pics AFTER you have told us whats wrong it is easy to see what the engineer has done wrong, but if it was me who was there on the day, under pressure of phone ringing, etc etc well would i have done everything correctly........................................?????????

 

[CMairiD]

I can accept the installation mistake (but don't make a bloody habit of it!) and all the associated headaches I'm going to get from BG fraud. But I'm choking on three years of CP12s showing gas rates. Assuming that nothing has been done to that pipework or meter after the boiler installation, then I'm left with three documents that appear falsified and I have trouble believing that. These are guys that call me when they are concerned about a tenant, they call me when they are concerned about an installation, they've friggin well spent hours teaching me for my gas training. I trust them enough to have them in my own home when I had a gas leak.

I keep looking at these pictures and trying to find a way to justify those gas rates because I don't want to have to face the alternative.

 

[ecowarm]

Look to me like two supplies to the property? Do both Ecvs have to be turned off to stop gas supply?

 

[CMairiD]

When I arrived at the property today, both internal & external ECVs were off. Turned on the internal ECV (first picture), boiler didn't fire and eventually had to reset it. Left the internal ECV on, went outside and turned on external ECV (2nd & 3rd picture of open meter box) and the boiler fired. Within in a few minutes, it was condensing. Took a photo of the meter reading before I touched anything and ran the boiler for about 20 minutes. The meter reading never moved.

 

[ecowarm]

when was the meter moved inside ? looks like a bg mess up

 

[Blackcatgas]

Ive had to re read this then the penny has dropped, no way of rating an apliance without looking at the meter, the meter wouldnt have moved! the cp12s have been made up lol! school boy error. Although an fga print out would have still worked.

 

[CMairiD]

At one point in time, all gas meters were internal on this estate (about 20 flats). A good few years ago, at least pre-2007 because of the external painting to the pipework (we can date that), The Grid came along and put all of them outside but for this tenant who has disabilities and was on pre-payment. The last two year's CP12s shows it was a pre-payment meter located internally, before that we weren't collecting data on meter type and location.

 

[tamz]

Check the date on the meter and see when it was fitted and also see if you can find out when the meter bar was fitted and the meter sited inside.

If you are lucky it may be down to the meter fitter if it was done after the boiler.

Your tenant (or your company) will be hit with an estimated bill for gas usage either way.

If it has been that way for a while then obviously the gas rates have been filled in as a paper exercise. Believe it.

 

[CMairiD]

The date box on the meter label has space for 6 characters the final four are filled in as 0699. Were E6 meters around in 1999?

 

[tamz]

The year of manufacture is the 4th and 3rd last numbers of the serial number eg E6Exxxxxxx07xx = 2007.
Been in use since the early 90's.

 

[CMairiD]

Following that pattern, then it was July 99.

 

[kirkgas]

the starting point for this is the date of boiler install, meter move and all services, this will determine who is to blame for this, unfortunately there will be blame, IF the meter was inside the box when the boiler was fitted the installer is ok as he could have properly commissioned, if he made a simple pipework error and connected where he did with the meter inside he would have spotted it when he commissioned, again the first service engineer could be ok depending on when the meter was moved, but the second and third services MUST be false, i think you will need to bite the bullet on that UNLESS the meter was moved after the current service date, in which case the meter mover has made an error, there are no safety issues as the pipe has always been controlled by the external ECV and regulator, but gas has been used that needs to be paid for, that is the least of your worries, if the meter was moved yrs ago you better hope the same engineer did all services, as it will be easier to blame JUST him, and deal with him, which will involve rechecking loads if not all of his work, if different engineers havent properly checked this appliance then you have a system failure where your whole department will need to prove they are doing all the tests in every house, looks like some OT forthe auditor

 

[wheeto]

kirkgas - from above

"three different guys have filled out tickets (two in kW, one in m3). " Not good.

 

[kirkgas]

kirkgas - from above

"three different guys have filled out tickets (two in kW, one in m3). " Not good.

true, i was trying to put my happy head on, sorry C its not looking good for you/them/someone

 

[CMairiD]

A had the appt with the fraud investigator today. What's there at this moment is a definite by-pass -- there's no defence.

The meter has gone from credit -> pre-payment -> credit and has moved from inside -> outside -> back inside again. Grid records say the last time the meter was touched was June 1999. The boiler install was April 2008.

Interestingly enough, the Grid says (according to the investigator) that pipework going from the external meter box to internal ECV/anaconda/meter should have been done in steel. Right now it's done in copper. Can anyone confirm this?

Looking at how to fix the mess, the easiest solution is to move the meter to the outside position and connect up a piece of copper between the internal ECV position and the internal outlet. One would think that would be simple piece of work that anyone can with MET1 can do. Would be using existing fittings and not touching the service. Oh no, says the Grid, we have do that. Please place an order, wait six weeks for us to survey and another 7 days to do the work.

This just gets better and better ...

 

[REDSAW]

hope i am not following this thread wrong, but could a dodgy tenant have bunged a few quid to some one for doing the by-pass?.

 

[kirkgas]

A had the appt with the fraud investigator today. What's there at this moment is a definite by-pass -- there's no defence.

The meter has gone from credit -> pre-payment -> credit and has moved from inside -> outside -> back inside again. Grid records say the last time the meter was touched was June 1999. The boiler install was April 2008.

Interestingly enough, the Grid says (according to the investigator) that pipework going from the external meter box to internal ECV/anaconda/meter should have been done in steel. Right now it's done in copper. Can anyone confirm this?

Looking at how to fix the mess, the easiest solution is to move the meter to the outside position and connect up a piece of copper between the internal ECV position and the internal outlet. One would think that would be simple piece of work that anyone can with MET1 can do. Would be using existing fittings and not touching the service. Oh no, says the Grid, we have do that. Please place an order, wait six weeks for us to survey and another 7 days to do the work.

This just gets better and better ...

the pipe does not have to be done in steel, unless the client (YOU) requested it done that way in the tender document, it is a preferred option by some but NOT a mandatory requirement, re the fix, anyone with MET 1 can re-locate a meter, but i think you are supposed to get written permission from the supplier, we havent seen any pics from inside but an option is to blank the pipe 100mm to the right of the tee under the external meter box, then extend the boiler feed to the left, enter the building and connect in to the existing supply (AFTER THE METER PLEASE) might not be too easy but must be do-able)
the easiest fix would be to simply swap the meter and test bar already fitted with each other, this would have everything metered, regulated and covered by the external ECV, (with the cooker having an addition ECV and regulator which wouldnt cause a problem) it would take 15 mins to swap over and test

re the blame, it looks as if the boiler installer is in the firing line as well given the dates, honestly i think it would have been a genuine mistake as he tried to work out an easy route to the new boiler, HOWEVER if it is a genuine mistake my sympathy stops when he went inside to properly commisssion the boiler and found the meter stationary, yes you would kick yourself but you would amend it there and then and hope nobody found out what you had did as you will get pelters for it,

 

[kirkgas]

hope i am not following this thread wrong, but could a dodgy tenant have bunged a few quid to some one for doing the by-pass?.

i dont think this will prove to be the truth, as it should be easy to see where pipes have been blanked and altered IF the new boiler install was done properly via the internal meter,

 

[tamz]

Relocation of the meter can only be done by the gas transporter or MAM or on their authority.
Holding met1 doesn't mean you can move a meter (without authorisation).
As for the steel, steel would be the preferred method (but not as Kirk said mandatory) if the meter was moved internal, only make it harder for this to happen but as the meter was moved by NG that one is their problem not yours.

 

[CMairiD]

Hooray! New info found by fraud investigator that puts the meter outside when the boiler was installed and only recently moved back in. Our boys are off the hook.

 

[kirkgas]

see your faith wasnt unfounded, you have been unsettled from the start because of the "facts" but were gutted that the "facts" were making your boys look bad, as you had faith in them, which is good to hear, as it is becoming more and more uncommon, so its down to the meter fitter, how come the customer was getting so much rebate then? (yea you are right ssssssssshhhhhhhhh) we have only just got the last worm back in the can, i'm claiming half a bonus point for my comment about the dates being critical

 

[tamz]

Glad you got it sorted. Bet that is a big weight lifted.

 

[turnpin]

I do love a happy ending.....!regards turnpin

 

[Toddyplumb]

Good result