Plumbing issue need help a worchester bosch system boiler and a joule 250ltr unvented cylinder

[Tim78]

Guys looking for some advice

I have a property that we are working on we have the following

gnd flr
wc
kitchen with dishwasher and one basin
water softener

1st flr
ensuite
shower toilet and basin
ensuite 2
shower basin bath and toilet

2nd flr
shower
basin
toilet
washing machine

We have a 32mdpe coming in reduced to a 28mm then into a water softner then a 22mm to boiler which is positioned on the 1st floor. We have a worchester bosch system boiler and a joule 250ltr unvented cylinder. Our pressure is 2.2bar and the flow rate coming into the property is 25lpm

At the moment we are getting complaints that the water is not reaching the 2nd floor area the loft so after investigations and by-passing the combination valve we found that the combination valve on cylinder was faulty as all showers worked fine when bypassed. We replaced the combination valve and this did improve the water to upstairs (loft) as it comes out now but when we turn on all 3 showers it drops. My plumber has recommended upgrading the combination valve to a 28mm from the 22mm installed.

Will this help in any way ? ?

Regards

Tim

 

[steadyon]

You need to know what the flow rate of the showers is. If each is 10lpm, then three on together is more than your incoming supply flow rate. Doesn't matter what size pipe you have, you can't get out more than is being put in.

 

[Tim78]

Thanks Steady yeah the shower are all large heads which I believe are over the 10lpm would the 28mm not let more out ??

 

[PlumbBobBob]

as steady already said you can't get out more than is put it. look at this way, you have a shorts glass full to the brim now pour that into a pint glass it won't fill it to the brim will it?

 

[mache]

Best to check where the flow bottle neck is first before changing anything. Increased combination value won't assist much if the water softner is the bottle neck.
You mentioned 25ltr/min, is this at outlet from your incoming 32mdpe or further down the line

 

[Tim78]

Best to check where the flow bottle neck is first before changing anything. Increased combination value won't assist much if the water softner is the bottle neck.
You mentioned 25ltr/min, is this at outlet from your incoming 32mdpe or further down the line

It's 25lpm outside and on 1st for reading 20lpm

 

[Best]

Hope there are no restrictive valves on water mains, like small bore Ballofix valves?
If you eventually achieve reasonable pressure and flow rates, it might also improve flow distribution if you use flow restrictors on some outlets, like taps, or low flow airators on tap spouts or buy suitable taps. Showers could also be reduced to sensible flow rates

 

[rpm]

Do WB like softened water going through their boilers?

 

[Tim78]

Best to check where the flow bottle neck is first before changing anything. Increased combination value won't assist much if the water softner is the bottle neck.
You mentioned 25ltr/min, is this at outlet from your incoming 32mdpe or further down the line

We did bypass the softer to see if this was the issue and was still the same

 

[king of pipes]

Your supply is far better than most peoples inlet and flow will always fluctuate due to demand in your area in the morning and evening it will drop through the night and day it will be higher . i suggest you add aireators to the taps this will restrict to 5 litres a minute and fit flow restrictors on the showers this can cut them down to 8 litres a minute you can buy these through amazon online ,this should solve your problem and save water and money .

 

[Tim78]

Your supply is far better than most peoples inlet and flow will always fluctuate due to demand in your area in the morning and evening it will drop through the night and day it will be higher . i suggest you add aireators to the taps this will restrict to 5 litres a minute and fit flow restrictors on the showers this can cut them down to 8 litres a minute you can buy these through amazon online ,this should solve your problem and save water and money .

The problem is that the client is expecting all showers to be running we did offer an accumulator with boost set earlier on in the project but she said she did not have the funds for it now they are refusing to pay me my last payment saying the plumbing is faulty. Is there any minimum we need to give and to comply with bs6700 ?

 

[SimonG]

The maths doesn't add up. Drencher heads are thirsty beasts. Sounds like the plumbing is spot on to me. Did you get anything in writing about the accumulator?

The only issue I have is that you knew it would be like this, hence offering the accumulator, but still went ahead. Not having a dig though.

But then that's only one side of the story. Customers expectations rarely meet reality.

Best bet is as king of pipes said. Aerators and restrictors to balance out the water across the outlets.

Who specified the showers?

 

[SimonG]

The maths doesn't add up. Drencher heads are thirsty beasts. Sounds like the plumbing is spot on to me. Did you get anything in writing about the accumulator?

The only issue I have is that you knew it would be like this, hence offering the accumulator, but still went ahead. Not having a dig though.

But then that's only one side of the story. Customers expectations rarely meet reality.

Best bet is as king of pipes said. Aerators and restrictors to balance out the water across the outlets.

Who specified the showers?

 

[Best]

If you can balance the outlets by using flow restictors and airators, then tell the customer it could only be improved if she had have the funds for the accumulator you had first suggested.

 

[Tim78]

The maths doesn't add up. Drencher heads are thirsty beasts. Sounds like the plumbing is spot on to me. Did you get anything in writing about the accumulator?

The only issue I have is that you knew it would be like this, hence offering the accumulator, but still went ahead. Not having a dig though.

But then that's only one side of the story. Customers expectations rarely meet reality.

Best bet is as king of pipes said. Aerators and restrictors to balance out the water across the outlets.

Who specified the showers?

Customer specified all sanitary ware

 

[Tim78]

Customer specified the showers

 

[Best]

You just need to be careful with that.
In one way it is to your advantage that customer specified showers (and probably taps?) because you can argue it is their mistake and would have required ideally more flow using an accumulator you recommended but they couldn't afford.
But small claims court judge would perhaps say you, as the expert installer/contractor should have known that the showers type and amount would be too much for the mains supply.

 

[Best]

I would try to work with customer on simple improvements and tell the customer that at the end of the day they cannot have any better flow rates that what their single mains pipe entering the house can produce. Maybe the shower heads is the first thing to see if they can be replaced or restricted ?

 

[Tim78]

Yes I have tried she is saying she wants everything left like it is. She keeps bringing up bs6700 and that all showers on with taps at need to run to a certain standard

 

[SimonG]

Bs 6700 doesn't cover it, unless you were running 10mm pipework etc. It's a simple maths issue. Shower flows combined don't equal what you have coming in.

But then I think you are on dodgy ground though. Unless you have paperwork to show you offered accumulator etc.

Not an easy one.

 

[SimonG]

Bs 6700 doesn't cover it, unless you were running 10mm pipework etc. It's a simple maths issue. Shower flows combined don't equal what you have coming in.

But then I think you are on dodgy ground though. Unless you have paperwork to show you offered accumulator etc.

Not an easy one.