Is a S flange out of the HWC really necessary ?

[realstokebloke]

I am fitting an shower pump (Salamander ESP 100, negative head) under the HWC in a gravity fed system.

I have run the pipework for the cold feed in, the cold out and the hot out, all in 22mm, as per spec.

But before i do the hot supply in from the cylinder, i wanted to check what's recommended by you guys if possible.

A couple of 'pro's' locally have told me i can use a compression tee off the horizontal out of the HWC and drop it down & across in 22mm to the pump for the hot feed.

Will this actually 'work' or am i better off getting an S flange fitted now?

Salamander obviously say an S or an Essex is vital.)

But...I can do the tee as above (I think) using a compression but think i'd need a plumber for the S flange and, at the end of the day, am trying to keep the costs down (& also learn as much as i can about plumbing jobs anyway out of interest).

So will i be asking for trouble with the DIY (tee out of the vertical exit pipe on the HWC) job or is the S flange route worth it for peace of mind / pump efficiency etc?

Appreciate your views / experiences - primarily as out of all the guys i've spoken to on this, none can tell me with any degree of confidence they did one last week & really know what they're doing - so i don't want some joker learning on me, possibly making a Horlics and getting paid for it.

(Appreciate too i'm obviously speaking to the wrong ones so far - but in the meantime any advice would be great, thanks.)

 

[realstokebloke]

Would it help to post a pic?

Have a boozy Jubilee celeb to do now but can do later (so perhaps make that tomorrow...)

 

[mountainman]

You can do it all three ways.
An Essex flange is best practice but can be tricky to fit, a Surrey flange is almost as good but easier to fit.
I wouldn't personally tee into the distribution pipe.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Surrey flange is the way to go ! have a look at cylinder and see if it has i blank'd off fitting on the side about 6" down (second'y return tapping) Essex flange you need more experience or you will finish up replaceing cylinder !! if you tee into hot pipe you could deaw air into pump causeing damage, Cheepest place iv'e seen surry flange Wicks , about £18.

 

[kay-jay]

Most shower manufacturers actually recommend tee ing downwards from the horizontal outlet with a pumped system. Check out aqualisa website for diagram

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[kay-jay]

As above ......the reason being flanges offer a lot of resistance and also air bubbles do not travel downwards....

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[barronbathrooms]

If you do not follow Manufacturers instructions they will not honour there guarantee. If you fit direct to hot water outlet there is a greater chance of air causing problems with the pump. I always install Essex flange or Surrey fitting!

 

[Guest123]

Yes, fit a Surrey or Essex flange.

 

[kay-jay]

There is a big difference between pump mi's and shower mi's for a pumped system. So who do you trust?......... Like i said in earlier post check aqualisa website for diagrams on how to plumb a pumped feed. Pumps all work on same principle.....shower manufacturers don't like flanges cos of restrictions affecting shower performance

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[kay-jay]

In fact ifirc the only flanges they recommend is a warix

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[realstokebloke]

Most shower manufacturers actually recommend tee ing downwards from the horizontal outlet with a pumped system. Check out aqualisa website for diagram

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Cheers KJ:

yes had a butchers at the Aqualiser site & the draw off the existing piepwork is most preferred & the flange is least (very odd?):

[DLMURL]http://www.aqualisa.co.uk/upload/INSTALLATION%20GUIDES/Install_Mach250_340.pdf[/DLMURL]

But, my draw off pipe (out of the HWC at the top) is vertical, not angled 'up' to the HW pipe network at the moment anyway - so would have to change that too &, at the end of the day, i have a Salamander and am pretty sure they do recommend a flange (i think they call a Surrey - the one at the top - a "S" flange).

They do:

http://salamanderpumps.co.uk/WebResources/Documents/Installation_Guidelines_Oct2011_Issue14.pdf

(So it's odd they & Aqualiser totally disagree on the same basic issue that the restriction of the flange outweighs the benefit of airation?)

So i take the hint that it's best to fit one or the other type of flange as barron bathrooms says - it then complies with the spec & warranty.

But...it will take a change of the pipework at the top - so i will post a pic of the existing to follow for a hint on what that entails if anyone can help / advise.

Thanks.

 

[Best]

Warix & Surrey flanges are very similar to each other, but if you have existing male bend on top of cylinder, then Warix is direct replacement, as the hot to all other supplies is from the side of a Warix & air free supply out of top for pump. Surrey flange is the opposite.
I personally wouldn't use Essex flanges even if I got them for free, as though they do give full flow, they are prone to leak due to heat on those rubber washers, destroying them. A new cylinder with a tapping near the top of side is best, or else Warix/Surrey flange. IMO.

 

[Howsie]

Do what every you're comfortable with and can afford now and in the future. Follow the MI and the pump manufacture will honor the guarantee. Don't and they won't. Bubbles are bad for a pump impeller.

Most of the pumps I've replaced have been tee'd into the hot feed off the top of the cylinder so make of that what you will.

Bubbles are bad for a pump impeller.

 

[kay-jay]

page 6 here [DLMURL]http://www.aqualisa.co.uk/upload/INSTALLATION%20GUIDES/Install_Mach250_340.pdf[/DLMURL] shows most preferred to least preferred options for connecting hot to pump. from aqualisa, and based on rigorous testing. note that essex/surrey flanges are not on list.

by teeing DOWNWARDS ​ air free supply is guaranteed as air does not travel downwards.

it all seems strange that shower mi's and pump mi's disagree on this though. follow one and ivalidate warranty on the other....

 

[kay-jay]

if you think about it teeing downwards from the hot supply it works on the same principle as a flange.

a flange has a dip tube which means that water is drawn from below the surface which ensures air free supply because any air above the diptube inlet will not enter supply because air will not travel downwards in water..........

 

[kay-jay]

in fact i just found this....

from stuart turner. the info here http://www.stuart-turner.co.uk/media/4336-Showermate-Standard-Single-and-Twin.pdf is exactly the same as that on the aqualisa website look at the wording and the diagrams). page 6 again shows preferred feeds and happily reccomends feed from hot supply without flanges.

 

[kay-jay]

therefore it follows that only the cheaper end of pump market is concerned about its impeller build and operational quality............

or perhaps they manufacture flanges......

 

[Howsie]

Air does travel downwards with water; small bubbles will follow the flow.

 

[kay-jay]

Obviously not to any degree that concerns Stuart turner just salamander., there may be others though. But two of the best makes of shower and pump respectively actually recommend teeing into supply rather than using a flange pg6 in the above links.

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[Howsie]

They probably tolerate the bubbles better than most.

I'm sure part of the reason that the 'tee' is in the MI's is to appear easy to install to the lay person.

 

[realstokebloke]

So - there really isn't a consensus is there? And arguably am more confused than ever.

As i say though, as i have a Salamander, i better do as per their instructions - altho' the Warix flange sounds good as a direct replacement - but even that is interesting (confusing?) as it seems to take the pump feed from the top of the flange - which is surely where the bubbles will rise into this pipe?

See p 6 as KJ suggests (last diagram on right):

http://www.stuart-turner.co.uk/media/4336-Showermate-Standard-Single-and-Twin.pdf

Better check if salamander also "allow" Warix flanges? *

And interesting to think that, if i just phone & ask different five plumbers locally, will i get five different answers?

* They do - just checked but the pump supply from the top confuses me (as per post below).

 

[realstokebloke]

in fact i just found this....

from stuart turner. the info here http://www.stuart-turner.co.uk/media/4336-Showermate-Standard-Single-and-Twin.pdf is exactly the same as that on the aqualisa website look at the wording and the diagrams). page 6 again shows preferred feeds and happily reccomends feed from hot supply without flanges.

I know KJ - i'm totally confuddled by it now (as post below).

I guess the problem with my tee would be that it is not angled up off the top of the cylinder (like diags 1 & 2 on pp6) but just vertically straight across.

So if i have to start altering the angle of the pipe etc, i may as well just fit a flange? (& then also be covered warranty / MI's wise?)

 

[realstokebloke]

Warix & Surrey flanges are very similar to each other, but if you have existing male bend on top of cylinder, then Warix is direct replacement, as the hot to all other supplies is from the side of a Warix & air free supply out of top for pump. Surrey flange is the opposite.
I personally wouldn't use Essex flanges even if I got them for free, as though they do give full flow, they are prone to leak due to heat on those rubber washers, destroying them. A new cylinder with a tapping near the top of side is best, or else Warix/Surrey flange. IMO.

Cheers Best - i wish i knew what was / is "best" tho' : )

I get the bubbles thing (in theory they only rise & so a tee down should be OK but, also get they might get sucked in & damage the impellar(s) - so a flange is a failsafe & complies with MI.)

I think I also get the warix issue you are talking about here (that the pipework to the other HW services is from the side & the pump feed is from the top - compared to the other way around on the S flange).

So, in theory, that's slightly less pipework to alter (the height of the horizontal feed across into the existing vertical HW pipes).

But...won't a feed up (off the top of a warix) just encourage air to rise up into that pipe & then get sucked down into the pump anyway?

I have also ruled out an Essex - i would be asking for trouble on a DIY and i have yet to find a plumber to touch one with a barge pole!

 

[realstokebloke]

therefore it follows that only the cheaper end of pump market is concerned about its impeller build and operational quality............

or perhaps they manufacture flanges......

That blinking Salamander wasn't cheap i tell you : )

 

[realstokebloke]

I've googled a warix:

http://www.plumbclick.co.uk/external/commerce/1/gfx/hires/Warix_Flange.jpg

and Salamander say it needs a compression elbow at the top:

"The supply connection to the pump
MUST BE FROM THE TOP of the Warix
Flange via a 22mm compression elbow
and thereby avoid inverted loops."

So do i just fit a compression elbow directly on top of that warix plse (on the rising bit sticking up)? (is that how it's done?)

and also do i need to check my cylinder (will be circa 15 yrs old) has a particualr type of thread into it? (i.e. the S flanges read like they have an adapter for male / female threads at the top of the cylinder.

I guess they are all 22mm at the top?

 

[realstokebloke]

in fact i just found this....

from stuart turner. the info here http://www.stuart-turner.co.uk/media/4336-Showermate-Standard-Single-and-Twin.pdf is exactly the same as that on the aqualisa website look at the wording and the diagrams). page 6 again shows preferred feeds and happily reccomends feed from hot supply without flanges.

KJ:

also in there (Stuart Turner - but not in Salamanders) on pp4 / figs 5 & 6, it shows the "preferred area"...and also those double triangles in the diags - i assume these are valves?

and I see the "preferred area" is the area they would prefer the pump to go in (which just basically looks to be under the height of the hot pump supply?) but is it also the preferred place for the iso valves?

i.e. does that just mean, don't fit the isolator valves higher than the hot pump inlet in the pipework?

Is it a "must" as i will struggle for space to fit same - just due to the layout of the area and available space.

 

[Mike Jackson]

If your existing pipe off the top of the cylinder runs horizontally straight from the top of the cylinder then a Warix flange is easiest. The top outlet is connected to a dip tube to avoid air entrapment.

The thread on the top of your cylinder will probably be 1" FI but could be 3/4.


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[Best]

Agree with above comments. Standard copper cylinders are 1" female, as are the standard flanges.
Any valves you fit need to be full flow, therefore gate valves, or the much better lever valves which are not expensive & trouble free. Just fit the lever valve for the hot supply to pump as close to where it leaves the cylinder if you can, or on the drop to pump. Cold supply normally better with valve at cold tank, but another valve fitted nearer the pump handy. Really all a job for a professional plumber,- all done in nice, carefully bent & clipped, copper pipes.

 

[kay-jay]

wouldn't worry too much about isolation location. do whats practical for you. its not a deal breaker. just as long as they isolate the correct parts of system, anywhere accessible on the pipes will do.

 

[kay-jay]

p.s if salamander require a comp elbow from cylinder then you will need to reroute your vertical outlet anyway, so you could do that and not bother with flange? s'up to you at end of the day. p.s how much was pump? i can get stu turners for only a few quid more from an independent merchant....look into it and maybe take the silly mander back :25:

 

[realstokebloke]

If your existing pipe off the top of the cylinder runs horizontally straight from the top of the cylinder then a Warix flange is easiest. The top outlet is connected to a dip tube to avoid air entrapment.

The thread on the top of your cylinder will probably be 1" FI but could be 3/4.


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Yes, it has an elbow out of the top & then runs horizontally across.

So the Warrix needed is either 1" / 22mm (most likely) or 3/4" / 22mm then?

Is the " (inch) measurement across the fitting to check plse?

 

[realstokebloke]

Fine with that - i was told (elsewhere on here to avoid gates AND lever valves though?) and to get full bore iso's (the ones with a screw driver turn).

Too late on the "all nice neat copper etc" - i have run the other three in PEX (but it is very nice & neat also.)

 

[Best]

Fine with that - i was told (elsewhere on here to avoid gates AND lever valves though?) and to get full bore iso's (the ones with a screw driver turn)

Too late on the "all nice neat copper etc" - i have run the other three in PEX (but it is very nice & neat also.)

Lever valves are not as tamper proof as iso's with screw slot, but they are perfect for pump & other supplies & I doubt full bore iso's are all as good quality as levers.
No such thing as neat plastic pipes IMO, copper with soldered joints, machine bends & the pump hoses straight, is the real way! :grin:

 

[realstokebloke]

Pity! No such thing as neat plastic pipes IMO, copper with soldered joints, machine bends & the pump hoses straight, is the real way! :grin:

Well, the pump hoses are as straight as the horseguards at the palace at the weekend anyway.

I'll try a pic to show the pipe runs as well though, so you can scoff some more

Now, how do i tell what my fitting (in the top of the HWC) is without draining the whole caboodle & getting the old one out first plse?

 

[realstokebloke]

p.s if salamander require a comp elbow from cylinder then you will need to reroute your vertical outlet anyway, so you could do that and not bother with flange? s'up to you at end of the day. p.s how much was pump? i can get stu turners for only a few quid more from an independent merchant....look into it and maybe take the silly mander back :25:

No can do KJ sorry, Had the Salamander a while now, so won't honour any returns.

If it all goes belly up though - I'll get back to you.

Are they not good 'uns tthemselves though?

Not knowing & being my forst ever pump purchase, i thought they were right up there in the pump food chain.