Heating ok but no hot water

[donmaico]

I have a 5 year old Alpha CB 28 boiler on which I suspect the heat exchanger needs replacing plus a flush is required .Now I took out a contract with Homeserve after I discovered the problem over the weekend who are promoted by Alpha as the company to deal with post warranty repairs.One of their engineers is due to see me today but what is concerning me is that they told me that a replacement heat exchanger is not covered and in such situations they recommend a new boiler.Now I know I have had to have this part replaced twice with this boiler and in neither of the two occasions was a new boiler suggested.I feel very much inclined to cancel this visit and try a local fitter instead.Could you please advise me on this ? So far i have paid £300 which includes a years cover plus a one off repair consisting of one part(not heat exchanger tho)

 

[Deleted member 2053]

Haven't dealt with many of Alphas but I think the last one was a 28CB with this exact problem. It turned out to be a simple repair. If your boiler really is losing heat exchangers at that rate you would probably be better to bite the bullet and buy something more relaible.

As a sole-trader I am ALWAYS going to recommend that you find a decent local plumber rather than Homeserve/BG/et al.

 

[Puddle]

If you have a five year old Alfa and you are after your third heat exchanger, would have thought you would have required a system flush a long time ago and correct chemical inhibitors added, you are paying the price of not paying for one when needed
Now you do a quick ‘join of a scheme’ and expect it all to be done for you and winge when they do'nt, you tried it on and it didn’t work, thats life, should have got the job done properly when boiler was replaced and flushed out at same time as is required, maybe you did not like the extra cost and that is now coming back to haunt you

 

[donmaico]

If you have a five year old Alfa and you are after your third heat exchanger, would have thought you would have required a system flush a long time ago and correct chemical inhibitors added, you are paying the price of not paying for one when needed
Now you do a quick ‘join of a scheme’ and expect it all to be done for you and winge when they do'nt, you tried it on and it didn’t work, thats life, should have got the job done properly when boiler was replaced and flushed out at same time as is required, maybe you did not like the extra cost and that is now coming back to haunt you

you would do well not to jump to conclusions .O f course i had inhibitors added when i first had the boiler fitted . I even had a water conditioner fixed above the boiler, plus an annual service
Its only 3 months since I had a major electrical component fitted by BG and another repair about a year before that so this boiler is weak.I am, though, hoping to sell my house so obviously fitting a new one is not cost effective.

Someone suggested it maybe a 3 port valve thats faulty because my heating is working fine and the hot water problem is intermittent ie it works ok during the day but not early morning or late at night.

Clients are perfectly entitled to winge when they are sold replacement boilers they dont need or ones which prove unreliable. There was a time when one could reasonably expect them to last 15 yrs or more , and frankly i see no reason why they shouldnt continue to do so.They also get fed up with extornionist fitters who , for eg,charge 70 quid to service a boiler which takes them about 10- 15 mins to do.Where i live most are pensioners living on very tight incomes.Anyway that is not why i started this thread.

 

[mark246]

you would do well not to jump to conclusions .O f course i had inhibitors added when i first had the boiler fitted . I even had a water conditioner fixed above the boiler, plus an annual service
Its only 3 months since I had a major electrical component fitted by BG and another repair about a year before that so this boiler is weak.I am, though, hoping to sell my house so obviously fitting a new one is not cost effective.

Someone suggested it maybe a 3 port valve thats faulty because my heating is working fine and the hot water problem is intermittent ie it works ok during the day but not early morning or late at night.

Clients are perfectly entitled to winge when they are sold replacement boilers they dont need or ones which prove unreliable. There was a time when one could reasonably expect them to last 15 yrs or more , and frankly i see no reason why they shouldnt continue to do so.They also get fed up with extornionist fitters who , for eg,charge 70 quid to service a boiler which takes them about 10- 15 mins to do.Where i live most are pensioners living on very tight incomes.Anyway that is not why i started this thread.

I accept that this is not why you started this thread, but how much do you think you should be charged to service a boiler? Maybe customers should pay huge sums of money to be gas safe registered and then there would be no need for gas safe operatives. Replacement boiler customers don't need? have you vast experience about this? As for boilers not lasting I agree with you. On your final point, OAP's I and a lot of colleagues accept that they are on tight income, is this different to the rest of us struggling to pay bills or maybe if someone is unable to pay they should get our service for free.

One final point out of £70 how much do you think the fitter actually earns after deductions or do customers (not attacking you personally) think we don't have overheads.

Why don't you ever read about the good tradesman who does a good job at a reasonable rate and turns up on time etc.....

 

[donmaico]

Why don't you ever read about the good tradesman who does a good job at a reasonable rate and turns up on time etc.....

what constitutes a reasonable rate?I know there are excellent plumbers/central heating fitters , but most round here seem to charge 200 ph minimum.My mechanic charges me 30 ph and he is excellent, even helps me out on small 5 mins jobs without charge( being a neighbour).Do the maths! Now i am not suggesting the former should do the same by any means as he is pretty much a one off,but i think fairness, integrity and reasonableness goes a long way especially with pensioners in mind.Anyway as i said , i didnt come in here to have a bellyache about tradesmen. I am just not entirely comfortable with Homeserve because of their heat exchanger exclusion

 

[newbie1]

i would love to see this 200.00 per hour fitter
correct service with all checks approx 1 hour plus travelling to and from job so prob more like 2 hours so infact 35.00 per hour
your mechanic on 30.00 an hour doesnt have to have
gas safe fee
acs fee
public liability fee
van insurance
and risk of prison sentence if he messes up
all this is beside the point
you have a fault on your boiler so instead of getting an engineer you try to join a scheme to get them to foot the bill
heat exchangers dont just clog up unless
a/the fitter never correctly flushed the system
b/the correct inhibitor wasnt added
c/a scale reduce wasnt fitted in a hard water area
a heat exchanger is nothing more than a radiator and will not clog up on a sealed system for no reason other than a poor installation or poor maintenace
everyone expects to fit their boiler not service it incl regular maintenace of the internals and then whinge when it breaks
if you buy a car would you drive it without servicing it and hope it doesnt develop a fault
too many people would rather not pay 70.00 a year and then end up with a problem

 

[donmaico]

well the fitter came and was puzzled.Reckoned it was either the heat exchanger or diverter valve plus flow switch .Opted for the latter Also told me the exclusion was because round here the water is classified as aggressive ie loads of lime scale which convinced me that I should have a soft water softener installed in my next house.

i would love to see this 200.00 per hour fitter
correct service with all checks approx 1 hour plus travelling to and from job so prob more like 2 hours so infact 35.00 per hour
your mechanic on 30.00 an hour doesnt have to have
gas safe fee
acs fee
public liability fee
van insurance
and risk of prison sentence if he messes up
all this is beside the point
you have a fault on your boiler so instead of getting an engineer you try to join a scheme to get them to foot the bill
heat exchangers dont just clog up unless
a/the fitter never correctly flushed the system
b/the correct inhibitor wasnt added
c/a scale reduce wasnt fitted in a hard water area
a heat exchanger is nothing more than a radiator and will not clog up on a sealed system for no reason other than a poor installation or poor maintenace
everyone expects to fit their boiler not service it incl regular maintenace of the internals and then whinge when it breaks
if you buy a car would you drive it without servicing it and hope it doesnt develop a fault
too many people would rather not pay 70.00 a year and then end up with a problem

love to find a 35 ph fitter round these parts.If it was double that i wouldnt complain, but the last bloke who serviced my boiler sent his young apprentice to do it (probably paid him 6 quid an hour, sending him, no doubt, to do all the regular ones ) and charged me 70 for a routine job that took 15 mins.I reckon he could do 3 an hour so he is quids in, if he is lucky of course.
As I said my mechanic is a one off and i wouldnt expect all other tradesmen to be the same.Mechanics round here charge rather more than he does and dont provide anything like the service.\
I joined the scheme for the same reason many others do - peace of mind, but I can now see it could be anything but.Homeserve are recommended by Alpha themselves but as in any other situations it depends on how good the fitter is himself.

as to whether the system was flushed correctly? That I dont know as I didnt stand over watching him but i have to assume he did it the way it should be.
Inhibitor was used as he showed me the full and then the empty container
Eighteen months ago I had a magnetic water treatment device fitted .
Lastly my boiler has been serviced regularly once a year if for no other reason thane prevent any carbon monoxide building emissions.
The only thing I have had done to it was

 

[mark246]

Well,you may not have intended to have a go at tradesmen but you've made a good go at it.

Still, hope this site continues to give you free advice, if nothing else it'll help you check up on the information you've been given by overpaid and clearly under qualified gas safe members.

£70 in 15 minutes and in your opinion 3 in an hour! please, what if they're at different parts of town etc then it may be 3 in a day which = £210 gross. I know on the way home maybe he can throw in a couple of free services for your elderly neighbours or people struggling with bills........ I don't feel the need to add anything else.

 

[donmaico]

Well,you may not have intended to have a go at tradesmen but you've made a good go at it.

Still, hope this site continues to give you free advice, if nothing else it'll help you check up on the information you've been given by overpaid and clearly under qualified gas safe members.

£70 in 15 minutes and in your opinion 3 in an hour! please, what if they're at different parts of town etc then it may be 3 in a day which = £210 gross. I know on the way home maybe he can throw in a couple of free services for your elderly neighbours or people struggling with bills........ I don't feel the need to add anything else.

what if i said he charged £120 for the service or £200 , would that be extortionate? I mean what would constitute a reasonable charge?There is a local landscape gardener I know who charges 150 - 200 ph, would that be considered reasonable?Local pensioners call him "Rob'm Blind", but he gets away with it so maybe some think his charges are fine.I am sure a solicitor would defend his 230 ph charges to the ends of the earth because of his "knowledge , expertise" and 5 years on the grind stone trying to get to where he is.Fact is , tho , a lot of his work is just routine stuff that anyone with a bit of savvy could do.In fact he gets his office lackies to do it and pays them £9 ph. Nice if you can get it .All i had said , was that i had paid 70 quid for routine service that took 15 mins which struck me as steep. For some reason some of you decided to have a pop at me .I am a client and i am entitled to complain if I dont like something but if you read my first post my suspicions were directed at a scheme provider not any particular tradesman.Unfortunately you decided to get on your high horse about it.

Is this the way you welcome newbies on to the forum btw?

 

[newbie1]

sorry but if you cant find a gas safe registered engineer willing to do a proper service for a reasonable rate then you just are not trying
a proper service should take up to an hour if cleaning the burners if not it consists of checking tightness/gas rate/inlet pressure/burner pressure/safety valve lockout time/and flue gas check plus a visual check of flue/and also a visual inspection of all other gas appliances in the property and for that 60-70 is reasonable
if he is there 15 mins then for gods sake get someone else
what part of country is this

 

[migoplumber]

all newbies on the forum are welcome. clients and installers alike. you are welcome to post here including complaining as long as you obey the forum rules at all times.

it does appear to me that you dont have much of an idea about the cost to a gas installer of being a gas installer though.

i too would be very interested in meeting or even having the phone number of your 200ph engineer, i could start work for him 2mrw at half his price, so he can pay me 100ph and he gets to stay at home all day for another 100ph. im sure he has had plenty of similar offers, so that dosnt really add up.
70 quid for a '15' minute service does sound expensive, but as said above there are other factors. was it nearer to half an hour maybe? was there 1/2 hour travelling (or more) each way. thats 1 1/2 hours and at 70 quid that sounds reasonable to me.
ime not gonna harp on about our expenses and training and how much it has cost us to earn the knowledge that allows us to do the job we do ( as with all trades, except we get charged 2k extra every 5 years to be able to do it )

you say your a fair man, who feels hard done by. i'd suggest if you are upset with your plumber. contact trading standards and they will sort it out for you. they are impartial and fair and will help you.

we are not all robbers, and do try to turn up on time, but when we are as good as we think we are, sometimes we run late, its nice to spend that extra 10mins with your client to assure them and double check everything.

good luck with trading standards.

 

[Renewable M]

hey don, chill out baby!

There is clearly an issue outside of the boiler if you're ploughing through h/exch like that.

In fact.... you mentioned a water conditioner..... a magnetic cartridge thingy will not prevent molecules of lime being released at the temperatures you get inside a boiler. It will retard the process for a short time, but the standing water inside the boiler almost immediately loses the influence of the cartridge. Basic physics.

And IMHO, 70 quid to service a boiler is nothing. Insure the van, calibrate (and buy) the analyser, pay the accountant, pay public liability, buy work clothing, complete risk assesments, advertise, get trained, accredited.....

Anyway thats beside the point. Please dont keep swapping the same part, if you dont identify the CAUSE.

It's naive to think that heat exchangers just fail....and fail.....and fail. Dont sign away your next h/exch and a pile of money!

My wife has a credit card. The statement comes, and it's been hammered. Cause, effect. It isnt a fault with the credit card.

Stay calm, and have a look at it. Hope you get sorted.

 

[donmaico]

sorry but if you cant find a gas safe registered engineer willing to do a proper service for a reasonable rate then you just are not trying
a proper service should take up to an hour if cleaning the burners if not it consists of checking tightness/gas rate/inlet pressure/burner pressure/safety valve lockout time/and flue gas check plus a visual check of flue/and also a visual inspection of all other gas appliances in the property and for that 60-70 is reasonable
if he is there 15 mins then for gods sake get someone else
what part of country is this

an hour?? Trying?? how hard and in what way do i have to try ? stand there with a stopwatch? In all the years i owned a boiler never has it taken a central heating engineer an hour or anything remotely close to service one of my boilers.If it did i would fully understand a £70 charge. A client has no idea what is involved or how long the work takes/.He simply lets the tradesman get on with it , hopes he can trust him and then pays the bill.Its only afterwards he begins to wonder.
I live in Sussex btw.

 

[Renewable M]

As I said, do they wonder about the years of training, the professional fees, the accountant, the insurance (employers, public, vehicle), the first aid course, parking permits, diesel, excess, bad debt, re-training, new tickets, more new tickets....then renewing them all, for gas, for oil, for lpg, for solid fuel, vehicle depreciation, tools....etc etc etc or just "I wish I earned that?????"

Do they worry about getting a good job? It isn't a tick in a box, it is safety for the property, appliance and persons living there, as well as a likelihood of ongoing efficient, reliable performance.

Dont let your trust issues eat you away my friend. If in doubt, ring gas safe and ask them what to expect from a gas service.

Get qualified, spend those years and the thousands and thousands and thousands of pounds.... then buy a van and stock and tools, and then the £70 will seem very, very reasonable. I cannot comprehend what in fact you think you are paying for.

Ask yourself why I am at my desk at midnight designing a hot water system for a factory? Because we have a mountain of compliance issues and we have to get it right 100% of the time or people die.

People like you. For £70.

 

[newbie1]

1/ring engineer
2/ask price
3/ask what checks he will do
they should include what i said
4/dont like price tell himto bog off
its about finding someone reasonable
i am waiting to take my exams but work with my son as he is gas safe and thats the sort of job he would do for 70.00 so there are gsr out there

 

[donmaico]

Geez the thread was meant to be about my reservations regarding a scheme , for which i got flac Then i make an opinion regarding a 70 quid service charge which i thought steep and the flac comes from all corners ,lol.As a client I am entitled to an opinion even tho I now understand better what is involved for the average C.H.E.
I have always adopted a carefree let them get on with it attitude and never grumbled about payments or been late with them.I dont do things on the cheap, trying to cut corners, in fact the only thing i havent had done is the magne whats it anti oxide treatment(forget the name)Having said that i know some engineers want an arm and a leg for their work (£200 ph)so i try to avoid them.They probably have greater overheads but then have the major contracts pretty much sewn up so not so bothered about individual clients .They happily dole out quotes ( complete systems)which are typically 1 -2 k higher than the sole traders.

hey don, chill out baby!

There is clearly an issue outside of the boiler if you're ploughing through h/exch like that.

In fact.... you mentioned a water conditioner..... a magnetic cartridge thingy will not prevent molecules of lime being released at the temperatures you get inside a boiler. It will retard the process for a short time, but the standing water inside the boiler almost immediately loses the influence of the cartridge. Basic physics.

And IMHO, 70 quid to service a boiler is nothing. Insure the van, calibrate (and buy) the analyser, pay the accountant, pay public liability, buy work clothing, complete risk assesments, advertise, get trained, accredited.....

Anyway thats beside the point. Please dont keep swapping the same part, if you dont identify the CAUSE.

It's naive to think that heat exchangers just fail....and fail.....and fail. Dont sign away your next h/exch and a pile of money!

My wife has a credit card. The statement comes, and it's been hammered. Cause, effect. It isnt a fault with the credit card.

Stay calm, and have a look at it. Hope you get sorted.

thank you.I t seems the fault may well bne with the diverter and not heat exchanger/It had small lumps of lime attached to it

 

[payney1974]

This might be a silly question but why are you so convinced its the h/exchanger if your c/heating works ok?
Do you mean the plate h/e??

 

[dontknowitall]

Reading the above I'm glad I don't do gas and stick to oil!!!

It's Christmas everyone - glad tidings and great joy.

We're not all rogues!

 

[Bernie2]

The problem is "What is fair and what isn't?"

What do we base prices on?

My guess is nothing, we get what we can get or what we think the customer can afford.

I mean if your customer was on the national minimum wage, how much would you charge?

If he was a banker earning over a million how much would you charge?

If you go to work your employer decides how much he wants to pay you.

The cost of training is the same throughout the gas industry so a self employed person can't really claim that as an excuse for high prices.

An employed person on £14 ph turns out the same work.

There are also some funny arrangements for an employee to pay back their training costs i.e. Usually if they leave or get sacked within twelve months of training they pay it all back, after two years they pay half, after that its free until the next training session in a few years time.

They are usually expected to do about ten services or more a day depending on type.

It goes on and on.

The thing is the market seems to be moving toward fixed prices, as they say "some you win, some you loose" prices.

It's interesting, but most people moan if they look at what they get an hour and if what is being charged per hour is way above that.

 

[donmaico]

This might be a silly question but why are you so convinced its the h/exchanger if your c/heating works ok?
Do you mean the plate h/e??

i never said i was convinced it was the heat exch, more a case of fearing the engineer would say it was, because that part is in fact an exclusion(due to what they call aggressive water) from their repair/insurance policy.As it happens he was unsure at first but then thought it might be the diverter and something called a coil switch.Anyway he said he had to order the party so i am waiting for the repair to be carried out

 

[RoryD]

Not really sure what your symptoms are. But if H/Exchangers are corroding then clearly it should have been flushed before the new install. if you used a local plumber then it puts into perspective grahameps view of using such traders. All manufacturers recommend flushing a system of sludge prior to install. Why on earth do people neglect to do this? it is the right thing to do and it will maximise profits at the same time. So many problems emanate from sludge

 

[donmaico]

Not really sure what your symptoms are. But if H/Exchangers are corroding then clearly it should have been flushed before the new install. if you used a local plumber then it puts into perspective grahameps view of using such traders. All manufacturers recommend flushing a system of sludge prior to install. Why on earth do people neglect to do this? it is the right thing to do and it will maximise profits at the same time. So many problems emanate from sludge

i know it was flushed and i know an additive was put in there for i bought it myself.Whether it was done correctly i am not sure as i didnt stand over him watching when the fitter first installed it
I didnt see any corrosion myself but there were some white deposits on the diverter

 

[tackleburger]

If your water works with the heating on then it is the flow switch very common on these boilers the switch costs 30 quid. The amount of heat exchagers you have had sound symptomatic of poor diagnosis.

 

[donmaico]

If your water works with the heating on then it is the flow switch very common on these boilers the switch costs 30 quid. The amount of heat exchagers you have had sound symptomatic of poor diagnosis.

flow switch is what the fitter mentioned as well as diverter yes( not coil switch).Thanks

 

[donmaico]

well thats done then! Turned out to be the flow switch after all.
H. E. didnt rate Apollo boilers much , reckoned Valiants to be about the best

 

[donmaico]

Had further problems with a leak .Homeserver refuse to cover it stating the water had too much sludge in it and was quoted £50 per rad to clear(10 rads = £500) the system.Eventually got in touch with a local plumber who added some Sentinel x400 , the system was left running for three weeks then he returend to empty it and added another chemical x100 sentinel inhibitor.All for about £120 which struck me as reasonable
Alpha engineer came and repaired the leak although there is still a slight one so i must get him back
I am wondering now whether to have a;ll existing stainless steel pipework replaced and a magnaclean fitted
I'll not use Homeserve again that is for certain.They are way too slow in responding and the engineering company they use dont seem to buy from local sources meaning further delays.