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Hi Has anybody designed or installed a duel gas heating boiler installation for Schools, Hospitals, factories, office blocks or old peoples homes or domestic use.

We are now living longer, hyperthermia is a big killer when temperatures drop well below freezing, should we be prepared for the instance when our gas boiler fails and we are unable to find a heating engineer to carry out repairs at short notice.

Hence the question should we install a standby boiler, that may save our lives one day. What do you think?. switching between boilers could be made simple by operating an electric switch.
 
Many of the above already have multiple boilers, where there is a single boiler, temp space heating or convention heating is very simple to set up. I carry 6KW of electric heating which i hand out if the boiler is going to be off. Offices often have a/c for summer, these can often be used in heat mode. From my experience not really an issue that cannot be resolved quickly.
 
Depends on your heating load if under 30kw no point in going down the dual boiler route

Your better of just buying a few oil filled rads
 
Hi Has anybody designed or installed a duel gas heating boiler installation for Schools, Hospitals, factories, office blocks or old peoples homes or domestic use.

We are now living longer, hyperthermia is a big killer when temperatures drop well below freezing, should we be prepared for the instance when our gas boiler fails and we are unable to find a heating engineer to carry out repairs at short notice.

Hence the question should we install a standby boiler, that may save our lives one day. What do you think?. switching between boilers could be made simple by operating an electric switch.


As Bacon said, we already do that. Have done for decades.
 
IMG_1141.JPG
On with one right now.
 
I sure like those purty plated butterfly/ball valves on those grundfos circulators, who sells'em?
 
I sure like those purty plated butterfly/ball valves on those grundfos circulators, who sells'em?

Williams trade only sells them
 
View attachment 31499 On with one right now.
Looks very good, first class. Did you design and specify the installation ?, is it fully automatic pre programmed to switch between boilers say every other week ?, or to be done manual. I think this is the way we move on.
My first condensing boiler broke down between Christmas and the new year, my heating engineer was already fully booked, he could not even give me a date when he was able to replace it, as I remember it was the year when even condensation pipes were freezing up. Electric heaters are ok for say 1 to 2 days but not for weeks if the residents are elderly, they may not be able to afford the additional expense. I have found gas is the cheapest of all central heating fuel types that I have tried.
I must admit I expected more heating engineers to be installing duel gas boilers, especially in larger dwellings.
Can I just thank everyone who took the time to respond.
 
They will be all working at the same time and combining the outputs

And space and cost limits you be looking around 6k to swap a set a boiler, and who says it's not a design fault that breaks them like you have said external condense pipe
 
Many of the above already have multiple boilers, where there is a single boiler, temp space heating or convention heating is very simple to set up. I carry 6KW of electric heating which i hand out if the boiler is going to be off. Offices often have a/c for summer, these can often be used in heat mode. From my experience not really an issue that cannot be resolved quickly.
Hi I remember my younger days when we had ducted heating/ air conditioning ventilation system installed in an office complex my developer/employer had built. The summer months the system was great, no complaints, but when the winter arrived, the women were not very happy, a regular comment was its all right for the men they where trousers. The temperature difference from floor to ceiling was just to much. The heating engineers had strung cords from floor to ceiling in most offices with thermometers strung at intervals, they tried for months to balance the system, to be honest I do not think ever sorted it. As we all know offices have to reach a minimum temperature to comply with regulations.
I like the way you look after your customers by providing them with electric heaters, that's very thought full of you.
 
The combined load for the property is the total output of the boilers combined. Hot water, space heating and swimming pool.
In fact tthis set up is 20kw shy of the building load. Because, when the pool is up to temperature, it only takes 20% of the output to heat it from cold. Same with the underfloor heating (1000m2 of the stuff!) .
This system has a cascade controller to bring on one, two or three boilers depending on load. It also cycles the lead boiler, so they all share the load.

Reasons for using multiple boilers.
1. Built in redundancy. If one breaks down, the other two will at a push, run th whole system.
2. Cost it's cheaper to get three smaller boilers, than one, or two larger ones.
3. Servicing. All parts are stocked at merchants and any local gas safe service guy can do them.
4. Fluing. Large commercial boilers have large flues. Smaller boilers are less obtrusive.

Back to the original post.
Generally it's not financial sense to have a spare. You can't see the whole plant room in the pic . But there is over ÂŁ20,0000 worth of equipment in there. Never mind fitting it and having a room to get it all in.
 
The combined load for the property is the total output of the boilers combined. Hot water, space heating and swimming pool.
In fact tthis set up is 20kw shy of the building load. Because, when the pool is up to temperature, it only takes 20% of the output to heat it from cold. Same with the underfloor heating (1000m2 of the stuff!) .
This system has a cascade controller to bring on one, two or three boilers depending on load. It also cycles the lead boiler, so they all share the load.

Reasons for using multiple boilers.
1. Built in redundancy. If one breaks down, the other two will at a push, run th whole system.
2. Cost it's cheaper to get three smaller boilers, than one, or two larger ones.
3. Servicing. All parts are stocked at merchants and any local gas safe service guy can do them.
4. Fluing. Large commercial boilers have large flues. Smaller boilers are less obtrusive.

Back to the original post.
Generally it's not financial sense to have a spare. You can't see the whole plant room in the pic . But there is over ÂŁ20,0000 worth of equipment in there. Never mind fitting it and having a room to get it all in.
Very impressed
 
I was asked recently if it would be better to fit two boilers instead of one. Was a large house circa 60KW, certainly i could have done it but the space requirements would have meant he would have lost a good part of his utility room. Having a spare boiler with 100% spare capacity cannot cost in economically. If on the off chance it does break down, where i am, heating engs prioritise breakdowns for the vulnerable and running electric heating for a few weeks is peanuts compared to a dual boiler set up.
 
Thermal store with immersion backup could be used to provide selective or background heating in no-boiler situation. Often thought of doing this for my own place.
 
I was asked recently if it would be better to fit two boilers instead of one.

My view is that failure of the electricity supply is the risk that needs mitigating first. If the leccy goes off not only does the CH stop working but you can't use electricity to keep warm. :(

Those who experienced the power cuts in the winter of discontent (78/79) rapidly discovered that going to bed early was pretty much the only good thing to do. A lot of babies were born 9 months later as a result... :)

Last time I looked at battery backup supplies suitable for CH they were based on lead-acid accummulators and I decided to buy some warm clothes instead. Since then, boilers have become a lot more energy efficient and batteries are now lithium tech, perhaps it's time to look again.

A small petrol generator would be cheaper, but I hate the noise the things make.
 
I was asked recently if it would be better to fit two boilers instead of one. Was a large house circa 60KW, certainly i could have done it but the space requirements would have meant he would have lost a good part of his utility room. Having a spare boiler with 100% spare capacity cannot cost in economically. If on the off chance it does break down, where i am, heating engs prioritise breakdowns for the vulnerable and running electric heating for a few weeks is peanuts compared to a dual boiler set up.

Hi I must admit I like my home comforts, modern day living is far better than it used to be ( hot baths when ever you want one). If you follow Chalked approach to the problem by fitting two boilers say 13kw instead of a 26kw running in tandem may be more cost effective instead of two 26kw ( you would then not have 100% over capacity). You would always have heat and hot water if one broke down. I have never costed the use of emersion heaters, if you have one fitted that is, to provide water for hot baths, again it should not be too expensive probably only a few pence or peanuts as you said per bath.
I would be prepared if I have the room to pay that little bit extra for a duel boiler installation knowing that if the worst happens I have it sorted, I will never forget when our gas boiler broke down over Christmas.
I think at times its better living in a Council house, its then up to somebody else to sort out.
What we always have to remember is everybody's circumstances are not always the same, what is easy for one to deal with can be difficult for another. The elderly are the most vulnerable, its been known that some people take advantage of that, we should all help them when possible.
Boy scouts motto be prepared !
 
Simon.

What is this thread really about? You start by assuming duty and standby boiler setup is possible (which it is) and ask if anyone here has experience of installing such a rig. Some do and some don't and that answers your question.

A few people point out that the cost of electricity as a standby is not anything like as large as the cost of installing and maintaining a second boiler and would do and you didn't like this.

You suggested two 13kW boilers 'instead of a 26'kW and I merely asked whether they were still available (never mind that I used to live in a large 3 bedroom house and a 13kW output boiler was overkill there so not sure what sort of mansions you're trying to heat) and you made what sounded like a sarcastic comment about how many did I want to buy.

I'm really confused. You have said more than once how vulnerable elderly people can be and have argued against any suggestion that there were other solutions except your one. It seems you've started by opening with a question but don't like it when anyone drifts off topic even though the question has already been answered.

Are you trying to get someone to install a duty and standby rig for you and can't find anyone who'll do it? I sense frustration in your posts.
 
Simon.

What is this thread really about? You start by assuming duty and standby boiler setup is possible (which it is) and ask if anyone here has experience of installing such a rig. Some do and some don't and that answers your question.

A few people point out that the cost of electricity as a standby is not anything like as large as the cost of installing and maintaining a second boiler and would do and you didn't like this.

You suggested two 13kW boilers 'instead of a 26'kW and I merely asked whether they were still available (never mind that I used to live in a large 3 bedroom house and a 13kW output boiler was overkill there so not sure what sort of mansions you're trying to heat) and you made what sounded like a sarcastic comment about how many did I want to buy.

I'm really confused. You have said more than once how vulnerable elderly people can be and have argued against any suggestion that there were other solutions except your one. It seems you've started by opening with a question but don't like it when anyone drifts off topic even though the question has already been answered.

Are you trying to get someone to install a duty and standby rig for you and can't find anyone who'll do it? I sense frustration in your posts.

Hi Ric2013
I am sorry I upset you.
Why did you make the comment do they still make 13kw boilers, if you checked up, you would know they did, were you point scoring or trying to play silly beggars with me ?, That's why you have posted this reply.

Will you please carefully read my original post, I did not mention what ways to provide temporally heating or hot water, I was dragged into the conversation re electricity as temporary heating as there are alternatives. I find my electricity bills are high and I am always looking at ways to reduce them. I think in the future that all houses will be self sufficient and heated by electricity, but not in my time.

I have always went out of my way to full fill the clients request pointing out the advantages and disadvantages of various options, it is then up to the client to decide which way he or she wishes to proceed. I think if the elderly were given the option many clients would go for the duel boiler installation if they can afford it.
Cost does matter when some ones life or peace of mind is at stake, knowing they have sorted. Its like having a gun put to your head not knowing when your boiler is going to stop working.
If the average life of a boiler was say 20 years instead of less than 10 then I think most people would be happy, I know I would be.
I have always installed my own boilers with the exception of the gas supply and connection to the boiler and had them checked out by a friend who is an heating engineer and gas safe registered.
 
Hi Simon,

I have read your original post. Several times, and the more I look at it, the more it leads me to the conclusion that you would appear, (whether you actually have or not), to have a vested interest in promoting duty and standby boiler gas installations.

You certainly come across as someone who wants to believe that the solution to a general problem of people dying of cold is dual boilers and your emotive language, e.g. 'gun to the head', is, I believe, trying to get us to agree with you.

In a 'past life' I became qualified, essentially, as a literary critic, and while I cannot speak of authorial intent (that went out of fashion in 1967), I can comment with some authority on how what you have written reads and what it suggests, whether or not that was what you meant it to say. I could PM this whole post, but I think this is too important not to say publicly: I agree with you we need to safeguard the vulnerable and I do not know who else may be reading and quoting from this forum so I want this public.

I have explained that I am confused as to why you are writing the way you are, and I have not had explanation. Instead you talk about the 13kW boiler issue. (I'll answer your point about 8kW boilers in detail by private message as that's irrelevant here. In short, no, I didn't know they were still made.)

I have looked at the language and tone of some of your comments and, quite honestly, they read like the sort of advert they use to sell old people water mains insurance, or insurance on a television, insurance on a satellite dish even.

As you say, your original post does not mention what ways to provide temporary services, but it does specify dual boiler installs and asks what people think of them given that they 'may save our lives one day'. This is very leading language in that you are opening with the idea that our lives are at risk if we do not have a backup boiler. Your whole second paragraph, and I'll quote it in full:



We are now living longer, hyperthermia is a big killer when temperatures drop well below freezing, should we be prepared for the instance when our gas boiler fails and we are unable to find a heating engineer to carry out repairs at short notice.


suggests that there is a reasonable likelihood of not finding a heating engineer 'when', not 'if' our gas boiler fails. When someone reads '[w]e are now living longer', something no one will disagree with, followed by 'hypothermia is a big killer', something we won't deny because it's true, though 'a big killer' has more emotional power than 'a significant cause of death in the elderly' would have, it makes them more likely to accept whatever is in the rest of the sentence. This sentence lulls a reader into accepting the end of the sentence because the beginning is so un-deniably factual, yet several people in this thread have commented that being 'unable to find a heating engineer to carry out repairs at short notice' is unlikely.

Also, it's a rhetorical question: a sentence starting 'Should we[...]' could be answered with 'no', but 'we should be prepared' would have the same meaning as 'should we be prepared?' as, after all, no one would say that to plan to have no contingency measure is a good plan.

The talk of electric backup is an alternative offered in frank response to the question posed in your third paragraph '[w]hat do you think?'. For some of us, we don't think dual boilers is a great solution. I would agree with you that a good installer should offer options but, provided the house has good wiring that will take the load (and it's worth considering that the maximum areas that can be served by radials and ring mains are based largely on the historical need for a socket circuit to take the electrical load imposed by using it for space heating), it would not be in a customer's interest to spend an extra, say, ÂŁ1000 to pay for a second boiler install, plus maintenance, just to save a few pounds for a week or two running on electric.

Fear tactics work and I have used them myself to allow an old man I used to live with to allow me to fit a washing machine in a spare room. I sold the idea that the existing machine had already broken down before, and could again, but if I put a backup in.... The tactic worked perfectly. The work was carried out entirely at my expense and I paid for the backup Miele washing machine and even left it for the family when I moved out. All I (and the whole family) got out of it was peace and quiet when we sat at the kitchen table and I don't feel bad about doing it as they are still happily using that machine. It cost the old man nothing whatsoever - in fact it added to his and his family's quality of life and to the value of his house. But the tactic is open to abuse, and even if the OP hasn't a vested interest, others may use this thread to scare people into an extra boiler install. Now that scares me more than a boiler breakdown.

I quibble on 'when' rather than 'if' the boiler breaks down because while, given an infinite number of boilers, or infinite time, a breakdown is a certainty, it's worth putting it into perspective that, since 1990, breakdown downtime on all the boilers in all the houses I have lived in has been two hours. In fairness, that was a thermocouple that I changed myself, but I do know (and not through being a plumber) a gas fitter who is generally able to get out to emergency callouts same or next day and who would have mended it in that timeframe even though I was not a priority. No doubt there are other gas fitters. I agree modern boilers are inherently less reliable, especially when you see how some cowboys chuck boilers in without a proper flush or sufficient inhibitor, but even a terrible Glow-worm the above-mentioned old man had ran without being so much as serviced for 8 years before it died. If we care about our customers then we'll do the work properly and boilers will last longer.

I really don't think a boiler breakdown is a likely event, or that it is a life-or-death situation provided we have some form of technical or human backup in place. I agree that hypothermia is a life-or death situation, but often it is caused not so much by 'well below freezing' temperatures (-12°C is a typical winter night in the Alps, much less common in the UK) as by cold weather coupled with lack of decent heating or money to run the heating than by an unlikely boiler breakdown at a time of adverse weather. Again, those who can afford a spare boiler can afford good electrical installations and to run heaters.

Unless, of course the actual question is 'how cheaply could we provide duty and standby boiler installations' which is an excellent question and deserving of a new thread in itself. I'll open one for you even.

On the other hand, if the customers are unable to move electric heaters around and have no one who will help them with this, then perhaps we need to rethink our society more than our heating systems. I suppose I'm more concerned about our genuinely vulnerable who can barely afford the cost of repair than those who can afford duty and standby boilers as the latter can always pay for assistance if need be. I know old people worry, but I think our culture promotes it - there are insurance policies foisted on the elderly for satellite dish installations, water mains etc etc, and I feel a service contract with a decent gas fitting firm is insurance enough. Also, the more people are able to 'be prepared', as you put it, the more unusual it is for someone to need help and the less socially acceptable it would be to ask for it.

Of course an old people's home is an exception, but it is also a situation where there are young and capable staff who are being paid to deal with the situation as needs be, but your continued reference to the elderly and '[w]hat we always have to remember is everybody's circumstances are not always the same' suggests you are not talking about schools and hospitals anyway or care institutions - you are really talking about people in domestic settings.

Whether or not you truly do have a vested interest in this, you have certainly written in a way that comes across as an advertisment for dual boiler installations and I really don't understand why. If English isn't your first language and you learned it through reading adverts (or "Installer" magazine) then I get it, otherwise... I'm still confused.

Enough from me on the subject: I've explained where I'm coming from.
 
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