Bad News for newie plumbers

[Jamie Banks]

Finished my 6129 level 2 recently and have been looking to further my experience etc

6129 level 2 standard alone - no problem

6129 level 3 only available for me day release or distant learning. Day release not possible due to work commitments - distance learning not adviseable as limited to what you learn from a book etc.

NVQ level 2 only available if connected or working for plumber etc

Therefore everyone who is leaving with 6129 are limited to where and what they do. Also according to Summit Skills you are not a qualified plumber with only 6129

Any advice or queries??

 

[gorbsteruk]

Hi Jamie
if you have the level 2 its only the tech cert you have to do the nvq part on site to move to level 3 so I believe.
when you have done level 3 nvq you are then are a qualified plumberi..... I have just stsart year 2 of my level 2 and I am finding it extremely hard to find a company to take me on to do the nvq... must be my age


mike

 

[Garryaca@yahoo.]

Hi Jamie
if you have the level 2 its only the tech cert you have to do the nvq part on site to move to level 3 so I believe.
when you have done level 3 nvq you are then are a qualified plumberi..... I have just stsart year 2 of my level 2 and I am finding it extremely hard to find a company to take me on to do the nvq... must be my age


mike

I've registerd self employed in order to do the NVQ with my college and a friend who is fully qualified...

Plus holding down a full time job..it's not going to be a walk in the park

 

[gorbsteruk]

Hi Gary

So are you doing your work to show for NVQ with your friend then ? and is he paying you etc

mike

 

[desrob]

the 6129 on its own it is a waste of time,there must be thousands of people with this certificate ,traing acency and college alike used it to put bums on seats and earn a tidy profit,because of this city and guilds are to scrap the 6129,so i would imagine any progression using this route is also a waste of time,diplomas are apparantly coming in.

 

[Jamie Banks]

Diploma's are coming into play but that will be a mix of 6129 and 6089 and only available fulltime to apprentices. The 6089 is available but this is work based so to get that area and work with someone must be a case of 1 in 100.

That is why like already said the 6129 is not really any good on its own as you are far from being qualified and will make more mistakes and so build up a negative reputation. Does not stand up well for future plumbing or infact construction industry.

When speaking to friends seems that this is the state of the country at the moment - but just hope the lack of experence and skills do not harm customers or the public.

 

[Bernie2]

Unfortunately they can bring in what they like, it will still come down to "Can you do the job?" The only way they know that you can do the jobs, is if you actually do them.

All this theory qualification stuff just seems to be a money making exercise.

Admittedly a certain amount of pure physics does come into Plumbing, but probably not as much as the mixed general theory, practise and tactile ability.

Its why the likes of the JIB one of the lead Plumbing Association's and possibly the lead Association for employed Plumbers, will not usually give you a grade card without a track record of having done the work you say you can do or perhaps have the potential to do and have it backed up by your employer's.

Even then it has to be accepted by an examining panel of the Association.

I suppose it makes sense really, you want a Plumber to be able to do Plumbing and one way to make sure he or she can is to ask his employers can he or she do it or think they can do it?

Its pointless telling people all about a job based on your theoretical understanding, its what you can do companies get paid for not what you know.

So its what you can do as well as your knowledge they want you for.

In point on the likes of new work you don't really need a great deal of Plumbing knowledge just enough to know if the drawings are wrong and usually that is the bosses or foreman's job anyway.
The rest of the time you are just following plans and installing things as they tell you.
So for new work I would rate being able to read drawings fairly highly on a newbies list of things to learn. Also how to work fast and do a good job. Its production on "housing bashing" that seems to count a lot.

Many years ago my brother in law went on one of the excellent Man Power Services Commission trainee courses for heating engineers. It was a twelve month course and extremely good. At the end of the twelve months he applied and got a job on the tools installing central heating. Within a very short time he packed in. His reason being "The work pace was consistently far to fast for him to be able to match the speed of fitters who had been in the game for years"

And the lads where excellent help to him, it wasn't "We don't want trainee's" they where very welcoming.

So he left and never went back to central heating again. That was a shame, but I imagine a quite common story.

 

[Jamie Banks]

Agreed but when a customer phones for a plumber now a days does he/she ever ask about what qualification they have etc. Fundermental difference between onetraining and another.

When you pick up yellow pages how do you know what they have - i tend to recommend after seeing previous work and all the way the work has been carried out.

Tend to find that some of the best tradesman are not working 5 days a week and tend to do the trade work on the weekend etc. This tends to take maybe 2 weekends etc but for half the price of the firms etc

 

[Centralheatking]

There is a massive practical skills shortage- bernie2 is right. Fatuous peices of paper from some college or other are only the start
solid practical experience is 90% of whats needed.

In my outfit all of us are over 50, worn out broken backed, wrecked knees BUT WE ARE
time served and most likely have seen it before. The worrying thing is it appears some of these newbies
are getting the bits of paper and then going self employed straightaway - scary - we have seen some real ballcocks up.

CENTRALHEATKING

 

[Jamie Banks]

Central Heat King,

Again i totally agree but some of the newbies are looking for guidance and help but until there is a route or benefical for the experienced to hand over their expertises what is the alternative?

I know of a couple of newbies who are doing it to gain the knowledge and are very well academically but then they hit a wall were no one gives them any help.

Think the industry is calling out for a training body or government grant to get trainers who can get these inexperienced up to a certain level.

Also there is a massive difference between being a plumber or a gas safe engineer

All the old plumbers always say its difficult but never give an answer

 

[desrob]

my point was to bring to as many peoples attentions the fact that colleges have lost there way all they seem to care about is profit margins,across the country thousand took the 6129 and the un educated thought them selves qualified,damaging to the trade,i am a great believer in apprenticeship ,even they are over subscribed,we need to be regulated as a trade,but i dont agree with the fact that your 50+ makes you any more qualifed than some one lets say with 10 yrs experience,i find plumbing/heating engineer a progressive trade and the fact that i am constantly learning was one of the reasons i chose plumbing,i have turned up to a few jobs were lets say a plumber with far more years in the game than me and the work was not only poor but up to date building ,water gas regulations were not followed,

 

[Garryaca@yahoo.]

Hi Gary

So are you doing your work to show for NVQ with your friend then ? and is he paying you etc

mike

nope the government are paying for me via the college

 

[Bernie2]

Its not only experience really, its just that when you have been in the game for a long time, you have probably seen many of the same things time after time and so they don't faze you as much as they might a new guy.

I must admit 10 years is a fair amount of time to be in a trade. But then it all depends what sort of work you have been doing. I've had 3 year apprentices who have spent most of their time on housing sites, ask me "You are not expected to pick up that piece of 3/16" cast by yourself are you?" and get a funny look on their face when you ask them to work with a bit of 54mm copper pipe.

The problem is of course, its not so much how long you have been in the game but what you have been doing. So just by the sheer length of time a person has been employed as a Plumber/Gas fitter usually means they have probably worked on quite a lot of different things.

I have always tried as far as I know to share what I know, with anybody who wants to know. But it would be silly to say that happens everywhere. Some guys are frightened to let you know how to do things if they are on bonus. You might turn out to be quicker than them and the boss might sack them for being slow. So why make it hard by helping potential competitors for your job?

Its the sad state the industry is in.

 

[tamz]

There is and always has been a route for the experienced to pass on their expertise and knowledge. An apprenticeship. Firms have always taken on apprentices to meet the demand for the work. Unfortunately this means there are a limited amount of placements and certainly far below the numbers who now seem to want into the trade but like every other skill there can only ever be limited numbers to suit the demand. The trade is now saturated by unskilled badly trained people calling themselves plumbers and the biggest beneficiaries have been the course providers who have cashed in on peoples hopes with little chance of those who pay the money actually succeeding long term. It would be interesting to know how many of those who have gone through the training courses are still at it a year or two down the line.

Learning a trade is more than just having a piece of paper saying you know how things should be done. Actually having the skills to do it is the hard bit. These skills are taught and learned and practiced over many years. Plumbing skills are only a small part of what you need to know. A good understanding of other construction skills and how buildings are actually built is essential.

I am not just saying that plumbing jobs should only be for fully time served tradesmen as they are the best. I've worked alongside enough of them to know that some are just dreadful. You get good and bad in every job but the majority do know better even though they might not always do their best. There will be many retrained guys who are capable and conscientious enough to leave a very good job. Just ask yourself (and answer honestly) would accept that standard of work you just did in your own house? (that rules out plastic pipe and flexi's for most then)

In Scotland, Snipef (the plumbers federation), have been lobbying for years to make the licensing of all plumbers compulsory (as i suspect the relative bodies in England and Wales have too) and have a licensing scheme in place at the moment. One of the conditions of which is
"USE OF COMPETENT OPERATIVES
All operatives carrying out plumbing work should hold a current SNIJIB Registration Card (or provide other evidence of competence acceptable to the Licensing Board)".
Which basically means without a JIB card you probably won't get a job with a registered firm.
Without the correct training AND experience you will not get a JIB card.
A level 2 NVQ is not a recognised plumbing qualification in Scotland, you need a minimum of level 3.

As Bernie also said even if you have the skills and the knowledge it is sometimes not enough if you are placed in an environment alongside other skilled tradesmen especially on heating, who may have done the job for years and can do things at a much faster pace constantly. 4-5 heating jobs a week between 2 men with hopefully a boy (who's wages comes off your wages), lifting and laying carpets and boards moving furniture etc. Takes some doing and certainly isn't for the faint hearted.
If you think you can do that week in week out you'll make around 55 - 65k a year. Easy money

 

[Bernie2]

The old government training schemes where better in a lot of ways. What they had the trainees do is a twelve month intensive course, then paid employers to take them on. The trainee then worked at a lower rate of pay than a full trades person for a period of about 2 years. With small increases every so often. At the end of the time the trainee had done 3 years training before becoming a trades person the same as anybody else. And the training was open to anybody of any age.

I worked with one who was brilliant and when he left the company I was working with he soon got a job with another. Why they stopped training like this I have no idea. But as usual, the government probably looked for a cheaper way to do things and pass the cost on to others. From a government point of view that looks fair.

But as Tamz says the game now seems littered with inexperienced workers many of them forced to go self employed.

I imagine the situation will only get worse as the service buyers look for cheaper and cheaper prices in the cost cutting environment which if not already here seems to be on the way. The service buyers are going to go for the cheapest option either through direct cost reduction or the value added more for less system.

The thing is of course the construction industry is about the only one left in the UK that employs many trades people and pays reasonable living wages. That is why everybody is trying to get into it. But unfortunately that drives prices down and so eventually the construction industry may become a low wage industry again. It may change if other industries such as the car industry open up again and offers other living wage jobs, but at the moment it doesn't seem set to happen. There was talk of the UK getting into Green industries and making jobs there. But China is now in it and already producing many more Green industry products than the UK.

So possibly no jobs there and so more pressure on the construction industry to provide jobs.

Lets not forget that in money terms, it costs very little to start up a big site such as the Channel Tunnel and for it to be employing thousands of people in a short time. Which is very good for a government who wants to provide jobs, no factories to build before you can start employing people, so its quick to get unemployment down.

We need a review of where the construction industry is going in this country.

 

[moony]

Central Heat King,

Again i totally agree but some of the newbies are looking for guidance and help but until there is a route or benefical for the experienced to hand over their expertises what is the alternative?

I know of a couple of newbies who are doing it to gain the knowledge and are very well academically but then they hit a wall were no one gives them any help.

Think the industry is calling out for a training body or government grant to get trainers who can get these inexperienced up to a certain level.

Also there is a massive difference between being a plumber or a gas safe engineer

All the old plumbers always say its difficult but never give an answer

jamie i know exaclty what your saying mate - but theres a reason no one is taking on - its on its knees at the moment - same as any job there wont be anyone taking on until there is an upturn in work... catch 22 i know but i dont think its a case of people not wanting to pass on there knowledge its more of a case theyre just looking out for themselves at the moment. we are in a recession

 

[aidanburns]

I'm about to start the NVQ Level 2 course in september.i just need the experience of working in the field with a experienced plumber and somewhere to do my on site assesments when i'm fiished.I'm willing to work for free but i'm still finding it difficult for someone to take me on

 

[fuzzy]

who are you doing it with mate? have you read all the comments here?

 

[SafeGasInstall]

better hold on to the cash

 

[aidanburns]

I'm going to do it in college, i dont really trust them quick courses to be honest.

 

[fuzzy]

and do you have a place in college? on what course exactly?

 

[WHPES]

I am in an odd situation myself - orignally qualified in industrial pipework - steel pipeline, high pressure steam systems, pipefitting, system design and installation, steel screwed and flanged pipework, copper and plastic, commercial pumping systems, 5 million BTU boilers etc etc. Pipe welding, non destructive examination of systems, qualified to degree level with all the tickets.

However one major organisation now insists that I cannot work for them unless I have the level 2 certificate despite having covered all the stuff already years ago for a different and far more advanced qualification. As a result I am having to do the 6089 now. Just about done but its hard getting motivated.

 

[justlead1]

A photo copier and a bit of snowpak would have done the job. The people asking for these qualification do nothing to train or support staff/trainees, along with some gas boiler manufacturers, relying on people to invest large amounts of time and money to repair and service poor products.

 

[tamz]

A photo copier and a bit of snowpak would have done the job. The people asking for these qualification do nothing to train or support staff/trainees, along with some gas boiler manufacturers, relying on people to invest large amounts of time and money to repair and service poor products.

Very true. If they are being so pedantic maybe you should think twice about offering your services.

 

[WHPES]

Trouble is they are a steady source of reguar income and the call outs are at a premium.