Another bodged bathroom

[Phil]

I was in a newish bathroom today, the main problem was water dripping through the ceiling when the basin was used, the bathroom was put in a couple of years ago by a local guy.

In the corner of the bathroom there is an inset basin set into a poorly tiled 'cube', no access panel and no way of getting to the leak without cutting a hole in the side.

The leak was obviously coming from the waste so I'm going back next week to insert an access panel and fix the leak.

Other issue which looks ridiculas is he's laid ply over the edge of the window and tiled it for a shower. "This enclosure will not fit in that corner because the window is 10 inches in the way, but don't worry I can just tile over it!!"

When you stand outside you can see bare ply behind the glass at one end.
I see this kind of work all the time, the general finish was appauling.

 

[easyt]

Is it any wonder folk diy ?

 

[helpsy]

Went to a job Thursday night. The woman showed me a receipt where she'd had someone in to do the bathroom for £2000. He made a right mess, and is no longer contactable, she then had someone in who was going to do the bathroom and wall/floor tiling for £450.
He put a hole in a pipe and left with water coming out of the pipe, saying he couldn't fix it as he wasn't a plumber.
I asked her(knowing the answer in my head already) if he had public liability, turns out he didn't, I then said about her house insurance. Her husband hadn't paid it for the last 2 months.
You get what you pay for, and sometimes you get more than what you bargained for.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

thats the trouble. people want bathrooms changed and are unfortunate enough to get people who shouldn't really be doing this sort of work they just see the pound signs light up their eyes. they just say yes i can do that without any thought at all.

 

[easyt]

A few years ago a neighbour of mine (a lady pensioner on her own) had a bathroom refit. Bath wasn't fixed to the wall, waste not fitted to sink , sink not fitted to wall, Tiling cut around sink(badly) Sink taps loose and toilet cistern leaking. Couldn't get the cowboys back again (probably just as well). I went round one evening whilst she was working a night shift as a nurse and sorted it. She left me a crate of beer. Don't remember finishing the tiling =)). Happily, when I saw her the next day, I had done a cracking job. (Don't think I could have done better sober).

 

[Bernie2]

It seems its not only Plumbing you get a bad job done now days. It seems its nearly everything. The problem is money has taken over.

Don't get me wrong when I say its also having so many people self employed. Who checks their work other than themselves? Where and how do they learn to get better at it, if they don't work with others in the same trade to watch how they do it?

When I went to work, if my work was no good my employer would soon sack me or a clerk of works, architect, supervisor complain or the lads make a show of you. When you work for yourself you don't have those checks and so if you don't know your doing it wrong how can you improve?

 

[easyt]

I think you make a good point Bernie. In the past many served an apprenticeship and worked in a company before going self employed. If guys are learning at college and seting up shortly after they are not going to have developed there skills and knowledge.

 

[dontknowitall]

Hmmph!!! I learned on a fast track course then set myself up. Keep being asked to do bathrooms and not yet had to return to fix leaks - not quite true but leaks materialise after a day or two and are then fixed quickly. No return calls a few months down the line as yet.

I tend to agree with what's being said though - too many people who do not take a pride in their work and some of them have been in the construction world for years.

 

[easyt]

Hmmph!!! I learned on a fast track course then set myself up. Keep being asked to do bathrooms and not yet had to return to fix leaks - not quite true but leaks materialise after a day or two and are then fixed quickly. No return calls a few months down the line as yet.

I tend to agree with what's being said though - too many people who do not take a pride in their work and some of them have been in the construction world for years.

Oops. I was generalising though Dontknowitall . I think though that some people think a course is all they need. I don't doubt your work. I have seen brilliant reproduction antiques produced by a guy I used to work with. No formal training but perfect carved reliefs instead of applied mouldings and dovetails etc. I was generalising. =))

 

[dontknowitall]

Easyt - I know you were generalising but I was just trying to help keep us all within Dan's guidelines!!

No offence taken and I don't think you were trying to cause any either.

Shall I stop digging my hole with my size 15's?

hehe

 

[justlead1]

Came across a job the other day where the guy that fitted a shower. He drilled a 50 mm hole through a rolled steel joist to get the waste out. On inspection he could have lifted a board and seen a clear run through with out the half day he spent on the task.

 

[buff]

surely customers must take some of the blame!
firstly they are governed by greed,ie getting the lowest qoute
secondly not checking simple things such as insurances,references,getting recommendations,contactable numbers,ie landline,address on qoutes etc
paying for the job up front,so on and so on
were in a reccession and everyone is turning there hand to anything to get money,its no excuse for poor workmanship or conning someone i accept that but customers sometimes dont help themselves

preaching over ill be back in the morning to face the onslaught
goodnight and love to everyone
bob

 

[tamz]

Totally agree with Bernies point on this. How can anyone tell they are doing the job right if no one has ever checked it as regards guys out on their own with no formal practical training (classrooms don't count at all as they are so far removed from the real world). Generally customers don't know any better.

Also why are so many "going back next week" to fix things. Why not just do it when you are there?

Just an observation as i've noticed this on lots of threads on different forums.

 

[Phil]

Sometimes you don't simply have time to do it there and then, this was 3:00pm on Sunday afternoon and had it been a normal basin I would have, but with it being all tiled in and an access panel needed making, plus he wanted me to solve the slow draining problem. It was to late in the day to try and rush and get it done by teatime and make a good job of it.

But no you're right Tamz, if I can fix it there and then to a good standard then I do it, if not I return next available apointment. Most of my call outs are fixed there and then.

This job wasn't an emergency. [insert a happy face]

 

[HoodedClaw]

I did a 6mth 6129 and I would be rather surprised if anyone off there does a decent job without other knowledge, luckily plumbing is supplementary to my developing and without the latter I'd not have a clue where to put runs or even how to lift boards. They may teach you how to sweat a pipe, but not how to access anything - it was all loose 8x4 boards when we went underfloor and exposed bathroom fittings.. Where is the crawling under a bath or locating waste through a 10" panel? the cylinder airing cupboard was the size of a 3rd bedroom.. lol..

i'd rather spend twice as long as expected to get it right and know I left a job I'd be happy with in my home - your get the money back from recommendations.

 

[Bernie2]

I suppose in reality it all depends on lots of things. Experiencing the situations yourself puts a whole new slant on class room taught stuff. Its why employers want experienced people.

I don't really know why some kind of supervised work could not be found for all the inexperienced guys to have a go on the likes of a limited number of HA contracts. They could work at a lower price/pay rate until thought competent.

The thing is I suppose you don't improve much if working by yourself, except through what could be costly mistakes for you and the customer. Tamz is right of course, customers don't or seldom know the difference between a good and a bad job.

And some rough jobs are really dear, not cheap so you can't really say all customers look for the cheapest job. What they usually ask for is a "Good job" and they have to trust you that you are doing a good job.

 

[easyt]

I did a 3 year sandwich course in civil engineering at Leeds Polytech ay the start of 1970. It would have been 18 months study, 2 week surveying field course and 2 6 month sessions in industry. (I did an extra year as my mother was dying of cancer just after I started and died just before 1st year exams. I opted to repeat the first year).
My feeling in doing the course was I needed a piece of paper to be able to do what I wanted to do. Whilst the course gave a good all round grounding the real learning regarding highway design and construction was gained in the workplace. Similarly with contract law. Straight after the course I would have been competent to do surveying work and setting out for line and level but not highway design.

 

[rumpo]

rember back in the 70's a lad named ringy fingy showed me the quick way to get floorboards up,,with a pickaxe,,dont get craftmanship like that these days

 

[dontknowitall]

LOL Rumpo!

HoodedClaw - "I did a 6mth 6129 and I would be rather surprised if anyone off there does a decent job without other knowledge". That's the difference, I think, to those who survive after doing a 6129 course and those who return to their previous jobs. There's a heck of a load more stuff than just gluing pipes together.

It's all very well (as I found out) being good and honest with customers but if you ain't got the next part of the knowledge you're not going to make much money as you'll end up just changing washers and fixing WCs.

 

[stevetheplumber]

problem is so many of the people who go on the fast track courses have no technical aptitude they leave an office based job have never done any diy and think when they finish the course they are now a plumber apprenteships and working for a company sorted the chaf from the wheat early on if you didnt have the right idea after a few weeks you were out theres no point paying to train someone whose not techn ically minded
on the other hand training schools who are being paid are not going to tell someone there no good for the chosen trade

 

[Avatar]

1) You have builders who are not specialised in plumbing doing a horrible job, charging lots of money, who have been working for years

2) you have DIYers who think they will give it a go, trying to save some money - you wouldn't DIY your car engine would you???

3) you have polish plumbers/and fast trackers who do crap work with no pride whatsoever, for peanuts!

The rest of us who care about what we do, and try to do the best job possible, have to just get on within a climate where we are automatically presumed to be cowboys/rip off merchants due to the amount of monkeys doing crap work out there.

We are tarred by the same brush alas!!!!

 

[dontknowitall]

Alas, us fast trackers are also tarred with this brush!!!

 

[Avatar]

I personally think fast trackers fall into these categories:

50-60% - doing cheap work badly (it is hard to be tough enough to really learn/create a business)

30% - not working as plumbers

10% - have worked hard enough to skill themselves (if you have been going for 3+ years like this, then you most likely know what you are doing!)

This is a broad generalisation though!

I am quite the expert now in most areas of plumbing - however i know when to call in someone else when I dont know what I am doing as well (boilers/tiling/electrical for example)

I am going to stick with one trade and learn it well!!!!

 

[Alby-shellshear]

A lot of what I am reading comes down to pride and common sense without either a job cannot be done to a good standard IMHO, I am a D.I.Y.er who takes pride in anything I put my hand to if I think it is out of my capabillity I would seek advise from the experts I.E. YOU, I have had to turn DIY as a lot of so called trades are conmen pretending to know what they are doing when in reality I knew more than they did, idiots trying to con good working people should be shot on the spot I jest

 

[kirkgas]

Hmmph!!! I learned on a fast track course then set myself up. Keep being asked to do bathrooms and not yet had to return to fix leaks - not quite true but leaks materialise after a day or two and are then fixed quickly. No return calls a few months down the line as yet.

I tend to agree with what's being said though - too many people who do not take a pride in their work and some of them have been in the construction world for years.

this is exactly what i have been saying for yrs, it isnt the courses that are to blame, the theory of them is fine, it is the indiviudals who decide on their own standards, you are "recent" to my trade, i have been in it for 32yrs, but it is up to us how we behave/perform in it, well done sir

 

[tamz]

rember back in the 70's a lad named ringy fingy showed me the quick way to get floorboards up,,with a pickaxe,,dont get craftmanship like that these days

When chipboard floors started being laid i found an Estwing multidrill was dead handy.
Only had to put it to that use occasionally when some new joiner decided it was quicker to lay floors without hatches. They soon learned it was quicker to leave them than it was to fix them.

For those who don't know here's a picture of one

http://www.estwingtools.co.uk/images/E312C.JPG

 

[Bernie2]

Naughty! Naughty! Tamz.

A mate of mine, told us about a mate of his working on a site where the brikkies where slow cutting the balanced flue holes out. So he did it himself with a lump hammer, resulted in a new external brickwork panel required. But he did not have trouble getting the holes cut after that.

To me its all daft, its common sense, these things need doing and people usually know when they should be done.

But how often do we get co-ordination on jobs?

Watched the road gang recently, taking up the paving stones to replace them with asphalt, to find one contractor taking them up and laying the asphalt, while another contractor was coming virtually right behind them digging it out to lay their services. Its madness that a little bit of co-ordination should be able to sort out.

 

[tamz]

Only ever had one joiner complain my "drill" was blunt but i had a short fuse and a family to feed then. His mates soon learned.

As you know Bernie, on sites it is usually all down to the money. Everyone is on pricework and price waits for no man, joiner or brickie. We and the agents would tell them what was needed but they would just carry on regardless until you pulled them up.

Btw i still have a great hate of joiners Not individually but as a trade. They have absolutely no respect for other trades.

For roadworks there is supposed to be some scheme where they check with each other to see what future works are planned in each area. Obviously they have lost each others numbers as i have seen that happening a lot too.

 

[easyt]

When I was working I found that coordination between statutory undertakers and highway authorities for programmed work was pretty good. The regulatory agreements only cover highway works over a certain area. (Might have been 100 sq m ?) Statutory undertakers can be denied access to areas of new work except for emergency work.